Breaking: Per SCOTUS, Same-Sex Marriage is now law of the land.

[steveh_131]

Everyone sins so everyone is condemned at birth. Creating me as a sinner and then demanding that I seek His forgiveness is a characteristic of a petty God. Yeah, I know, I know, I can't possibly understand Him so I shouldn't question. This is always going to be a circular argument?

It is circular to some extent, but I think it is important to recognize the component of free will. You choose to sin. You could have made the right choice, but you make the wrong ones. The fact that we all do it does not mean that we have to do it.

We are condemned by our own faulty choices, but that is fortunately not the end of the story and I think the events that follow prove that God is anything but petty.

 

[KLB]

This discussion seems like it'd fit better in the "Civil Discussion: Christianity" or even "General Religion" threads... /shrug

Agreed.

 

[MisterChester]

It is circular to some extent, but I think it is important to recognize the component of free will. You choose to sin. You could have made the right choice, but you make the wrong ones. The fact that we all do it does not mean that we have to do it.

We are condemned by our own faulty choices, but that is fortunately not the end of the story and I think the events that follow prove that God is anything but petty.

Exodus 34:14 states that God is a jealous God. Isn't that a human emotion, one that is petty?

 

[Woobie]

Which brings us right back around to my first question: which specific act am I being held responsible for, and why does it merit infinite suffering?

Have you ever defrauded someone? How about outright stole something? Or have you ever lusted for someone you weren't married too? I don't know how many men alive can answer no to all of those questions. I'm guessing none.

 

[steveh_131]

Exodus 34:14 states that God is a jealous God. Isn't that a human emotion, one that is petty?

To understand this, you need to understand the language of the time. The Hebrew word used is qin’ah. It can be used in a positive sense or a negative sense.

The negative sense implies the human emotion of envy, or wanting something that someone else has that doesn't belong to you.

The positive sense implies an earnest desire for something that rightly belongs to you. This is the correct interpretation in the context of this passage.

 

[Rookie]

Exodus 34:14 states that God is a jealous God. Isn't that a human emotion, one that is petty?

If God is Jealous Doesn't That Make Him the Divine Hypocrite?

 

[Lowe0]

Have you ever defrauded someone? How about outright stole something? Or have you ever lusted for someone you weren't married too? I don't know how many men alive can answer no to all of those questions. I'm guessing none.

No, no, yes. Your argument is that it's perfectly fair to torture someone for finding someone else attractive?

 

[Woobie]

Exodus 34:14 states that God is a jealous God. Isn't that a human emotion, one that is petty?

That word in the original text has a much broader meaning than what we typically relate it to. You wouldn't consider someone who prevented a thief from taking their belongings to be petty. The term is used in reference to God maintaining what is His.

 

[deal me in]

It is circular to some extent, but I think it is important to recognize the component of free will. You choose to sin. You could have made the right choice, but you make the wrong ones. The fact that we all do it does not mean that we have to do it.

We are condemned by our own faulty choices, but that is fortunately not the end of the story and I think the events that follow prove that God is anything but petty.

The evidence suggests that free will doesn't really exist, though that is a rather esoteric discussion that I'm not really qualified to have. Regardless, I've made the point before that free will can't exist if God already knows what I'm going to choose. I can never make the other choice in that world. So, if you want to make the free will argument, I think you first have to abandon an omniscient God.

 

[Woobie]

No, no, yes. Your argument is that it's perfectly fair to torture someone for finding someone else attractive?

My assertion is that the Bible states, as I quoted earlier, that offense in one point of the law makes you guilty of the whole law. To put it another way, the crime doesn't matter so much as the status of criminal. This is foreign to us who are used to the American system of justice, and as such, seems unjust. We all think from a frame of reference. As this is outside our frame of reference, it is, to an extent for us, incomprehensible.

 

[Rookie]

The evidence suggests that free will doesn't really exist, though that is a rather esoteric discussion that I'm not really qualified to have. Regardless, I've made the point before that free will can't exist if God already knows what I'm going to choose. I can never make the other choice in that world. So, if you want to make the free will argument, I think you first have to abandon an omniscient God.

I knew my children were going to break the rules. Sometimes, I knew exactly when they were going to break the rules. My children still had the ability to choose between right and wrong even though i could have forced them to do right.

 

[jamil]

Huh. I guess we're no longer discussing the SCOTUS decision on same-sex marriage.

I'm sure you guys understand that countless arguments about this have been had throughout the ages and yet people still believe in your god, someone else's god, or no god at all. The only confidence I have in today's iteration is that no minds will have changed by its conclusion.

 

[Woobie]

The evidence suggests that free will doesn't really exist, though that is a rather esoteric discussion that I'm not really qualified to have. Regardless, I've made the point before that free will can't exist if God already knows what I'm going to choose. I can never make the other choice in that world. So, if you want to make the free will argument, I think you first have to abandon an omniscient God.

If I am watching a train come toward you, I know you are going to wind up as a pile of goo. If I told you that would happen if you lay there on the tracks, I gave you a choice. I didn't tie you to the rails, but I'm not going to take away your choice to be there, either. God took the extra step and sent his Son to push anyone who will let Him off the tracks.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

*sigh*

East Tennessee hardware store puts up 'No Gays Allowed' sign

 

[Lowe0]

My assertion is that the Bible states, as I quoted earlier, that offense in one point of the law makes you guilty of the whole law. To put it another way, the crime doesn't matter so much as the status of criminal. This is foreign to us who are used to the American system of justice, and as such, seems unjust. We all think from a frame of reference. As this is outside our frame of reference, it is, to an extent for us, incomprehensible.

If it's incomprehensible, then how am I expected to believe it?

 

[steveh_131]

East Tennessee hardware store puts up 'No Gays Allowed' sign

Interestingly, if this were reversed and the Supreme Court had universally banned gay marriage, we'd probably be seeing "No Christians Allowed" signs.

I think we have to expect over-reactions such as this when the government oversteps its bounds.

 

[mrjarrell]

*sigh*

East Tennessee hardware store puts up 'No Gays Allowed' sign

Good. Let's rational people know who not to do business with.

 

[Woobie]

If it's incomprehensible, then how am I expected to believe it?

Quantum physics is, for the most part, incomprehensible to me. That doesn't make it less valid. But perhaps incomprehensible was a poor choice of words. I didn't mean we were incapable of comprehending some of these things, but that we usually don't. That being said, God is incomprehensible because we lack the capacity for comprehending Him. I'm not saying that all that is believed is comprehended, I'm saying that there are things beyond comprehension that must be chosen to either believe or disbelieve. At that intersection lies faith. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I doubt anyone can answer all the questions evolution raises, therefore it is not fully comprehended. If you then say the universe evolved over the course of Billions of years, and that our ancestors were pond scum without fully comprehending how that would come to be, you are accepting certain things on faith. We all have faith. Choose your faith wisely.

 

[deal me in]

I knew my children were going to break the rules. Sometimes, I knew exactly when they were going to break the rules. My children still had the ability to choose between right and wrong even though i could have forced them to do right.

Did they? Or did they just do what they were destined to do all along? How did you know? Did they ever surprise you and make the other choice? You can't label it free will if It's impossible for me to make the choice that God knows I'm not going to make.

 

[deal me in]

If I am watching a train come toward you, I know you are going to wind up as a pile of goo. If I told you that would happen if you lay there on the tracks, I gave you a choice. I didn't tie you to the rails, but I'm not going to take away your choice to be there, either. God took the extra step and sent his Son to push anyone who will let Him off the tracks.

Your analogy doesn't go far enough. In a proper analogy you know whether I'm going to choose to get off the tracks ahead of time.