Bill of Sale template

[Floater]

One thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that unless the bill of sale is notarized, it's worth exactly nothing. I'm not a lawyer, but I deal with legal documents quite often in my profession. A piece of paper with two signatures on it proves exactly nothing and is not a legal document.

When the JBT kick down your door because the gun you sold to Jim Bob was used in a crime and you show them your bill of sale, can you prove that the bill of sale is legitimate? Can you prove that you did not forge Jim Bob's signature?

Suppose they manage to track both you and Jim Bob down. You have your bill of sale as "proof" that you sold the gun. Jim Bob says I never signed a bill of sale. I've never met this guy in my life. Then what?

Do you bill of sales guys bring a notary public along to witness, sign, and seal the bill of sale? If not, then what "protection" are you really affording yourselves with via these bills of sales?

 

[GBuck]

When the JBT kick down your door because the gun you sold to Jim Bob was used in a crime and you show them your bill of sale, can you prove that the bill of sale is legitimate? Can you prove that you did not forge Jim Bob's signature?

Where are you guys getting this info of JBT kicking down your door? Do you guys have some magical guns that imprint with your address or something?

 

[Floater]

Where are you guys getting this info of JBT kicking down your door? Do you guys have some magical guns that imprint with your address or something?

Sorry, I was loosely referencing several posters who theorized that, without the bill of sale, the police are going straight to their house after the sold gun was used in a crime.

 

[JettaKnight]

Anyone with a scanner, a ream of pink paper, MS Paint, and 15 minutes on their hands can create the LTCH for the number of people they could fill in data for in 15 minutes. Add a laminating machine and they look like what everyone that does it right carries. Just because someone has a pink piece of paper doesn't mean they're good to go.

Besides, if you lose your LTCH, you don't loose the pink slip.

EDIT: I guess if you move to IL they don't take away your IN driver's lic.

I think I'll stick to my nose - if it smells fishy, I walk away.

 

[JettaKnight]

Are you saying that you are willing to kick in some cash for my legal bills when I get shanghaied by the BATFE in a set-up? Thanks!!!

The BATFE doesn't require you to get any paperwork or even to know the buyers name. If you have reason to believe the buyer is ineligible then you shouldn't sell with or without paperwork.

Now if I buy a gun FTF and sell FTF, without the rest of you "paper pushers" there's absolutely no paper trail proving I ever even touched that gun! So the rest of you need to just stop it!

 

[alexanjl12]

I will be more than happy to show my ID/LTCH and will sign a Bill of sale if its the Buyers Terms. However the only info of mine you will have on that sheet is my name, my signature and possibly my cell number(simply because I probably already gave it to you when setting up the time/place to meet).

You give me a form that asks for my address/DLN/LTCH, or some other personal information that you really dont need and is none of your damn business...then you better be ready to see an address that will look something like:

1911's Rule Lane
Bacon, Indiana, 01010

 

[melensdad]

For in-state private sales when I buy a gun if the seller wants a bill of sale then I will sign it.

When I sell a gun in a private sale I attempt to insure the person is an Indiana resident and is a proper person, and therefore qualified to actually own a weapon.

To do that I ask to see their Indiana driver's license. I don't hold it in my hand, I just want them to flash it to me long enough so that I can see it is them since it establishes their residency. I also ask for a LTCH to establish they are a 'proper person' within the eyes of the law. The LTCH is granted only to those citizens who the state considers a proper person.

I have no argument with anyone who chooses to bypass a deal because of my requirements. I have only sold a handful of guns in private sales during my lifetime, but I'm going to attempt to make sure that I sell to someone who is legally qualified to buy a gun.

35-47-1-7 Sec. 7. "Proper person" means a person who:
(1) does not have a conviction for resisting law enforcement under IC 35-44-3-3
within five (5) years before the person applies for a license or permit under this chapter; (2) does not have a conviction for a crime for which the person could have been
sentenced for more than one (1) year;
(3) does not have a conviction for a crime of domestic violence (as defined in
IC 35-41-1-6.3), unless a court has restored the person's right to possess a firearm under IC 3-7-13-5;
(4) is not prohibited by a court order from possessing a handgun;
(5) does not have a record of being an alcohol or drug abuser as defined in this chapter;
(6) does not have documented evidence which would give rise to a reasonable belief that the person has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct;
(7) does not make a false statement of material fact on the person's application;
(8) does not have a conviction for any crime involving an inability to safely handle a handgun;
(9) does not have a conviction for violation of the provisions of this article within five (5) years of the person's application; or
(10) does not have an adjudication as a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult, if the person applying for a license or permit under this chapter is less than twenty-three (23) years of age.​

http://www.in.gov/isp/files/firearms_FAQ_02_08.pdf​

 

[Hoosierbuck]

One thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is that unless the bill of sale is notarized, it's worth exactly nothing. I'm not a lawyer, but I deal with legal documents quite often in my profession. A piece of paper with two signatures on it proves exactly nothing and is not a legal document.

In the real world, no piece of paper is going to be a magic get out of jail free card, but your assertion is absurd. With a purported bill of sale, you at least can give the police another tree to bark up. With the fact that you once owned the gun being the only evidentiary tie to the crime and a bill of sale, the police will move on with the investigation.

Where are you guys getting this info of JBT kicking down your door? Do you guys have some magical guns that imprint with your address or something?

You needn't be so sarcastic. Have you ever purchased a gun from a dealer, then eventually sold it to a private person? (A show of hands? Everybody? Great.)
If that gun turns up as part of a crime, it will be traced from the manufacturer to the distributor to the dealer...to you! Wouldn't you rather be able to show the police a scrap of paper that gives them the next lead in their investigation as opposed to being the end of the line, and having to be cleared by a thorough investigation?

Do what you want, but I use a simple BOS that has your name on it, and I'll see your ID/LTCH or we won't deal. My choice to require it, your choice to comply, no problem.

HB

 

[Booya]

Care to share how you think that firearm will be traced back to you?

Where are you guys getting this info of JBT kicking down your door? Do you guys have some magical guns that imprint with your address or something?

Easy answer, 4473. If the ATF can get the serial number, the manufacturer tells them who they shipped it to, the store that received it tells them who they sold it to, your phone/doorbell rings. Simple as that.

If they can get the serial number of a firearm it will be traced to the original owner, usually very fast. Ask any FFL. I just had this conversation with an ATF agent in my house the other day.

**Hoosierbuck** and I were typing at the same time...

 

[singlesix]

NO!

 

[Floater]

In the real world, no piece of paper is going to be a magic get out of jail free card, but your assertion is absurd. With a purported bill of sale, you at least can give the police another tree to bark up. With the fact that you once owned the gun being the only evidentiary tie to the crime and a bill of sale, the police will move on with the investigation.

So you hand them a piece of paper with a name written on it and they will automatically accept it as indisputable factual evidence that you no longer own the gun? Now who's being absurd? They may investigate the name you gave them, but there's no reason to believe they will stop investigating you and "move on."

 

[Booya]

For the OP, I have used this form in the past. I don't require every block filled out, basically just the firearm info and the name/city/state (legibly).

I have done MANY personal purchases and sales, and only felt the need to use this once or twice. I have also used it for raffle functions and the like on several occasions. works out just fine.

http://www.beararms.com/PDF/FTUP.pdf

 

[LEaSH]

The BATFE doesn't require you to get any paperwork or even to know the buyers name. If you have reason to believe the buyer is ineligible then you shouldn't sell with or without paperwork.

Now if I buy a gun FTF and sell FTF, without the rest of you "paper pushers" there's absolutely no paper trail proving I ever even touched that gun! So the rest of you need to just stop it!

It doesn't matter what the BATFE requires. What matters is what happens when they want to make some peoples' lives miserable. And every bit of CYA might save a person thousands.

Each person can choose to do their deals as they want do them. I'll just leave these here:
Gun Dealer Gets Prison for Selling to Illegal Immigrant; Illegal 'Middle Man' Not Charged



PDF from the batf

 

[Hoosierbuck]

So you hand them a piece of paper with a name written on it and they will automatically accept it as indisputable factual evidence that you no longer own the gun? Now who's being absurd? They may investigate the name you gave them, but there's no reason to believe they will stop investigating you and "move on."

Look, pal. It doesn't have to get compicated. They'll do some checking, like I implied-"the only evidentiary tie" but experience tells me that they will indeed move on a lot quicker with the BOS than without it. You don't have to trust my experience or give any weight to my opinion, based thereon. I don't really care. There may, however, be people on here that look at your assertion and believe that a BOS is not worth anything, and that's why I posted my disagreement.
Finally, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't re-assert my position and add those red words. That is not a truthful or correct restatement of my post.
HB

 

[JettaKnight]

PDF from the batf

Very interesting read. It looks the like guy couldn't get a FFL01 because of some convictions, but still wanted to play gunshow dealer and thumb his nose at the ATF.

This guy wasn't doing a typical FTF transfer like we do. He had a table set up at a show and was openly advertising that buyers could avoid a F4473. In fact he's bragging about! (point 6)

If even half of that is true then the Copeland is an idiot. He did get the straw buyer's particulars recorded. But, no amount of paperwork would have saved his butt on that one.


PS
If anyone is really paranoid enough to require forms that have blanks for the buyers and sellers height and weight, just pay the extra $10-$25 and go through a FFL01. NICS is the only 100% valid proof of legitimacy and the record of transfer is with a disinterested third party in case the LEO or Feds show up looking for a gun.

I don't worry much about a MN long rifle showing up on the streets, but if I was selling a Hi-point...

 

[fastwally]

I will show identification, answer questions, record and sign nothing. If the want more, sell it to someone else. I did it a couple times over the years and it bugged me so much I got rid of the guns.

 

[Floater]

Finally, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't re-assert my position and add those red words. That is not a truthful or correct restatement of my post.

I quoted you verbatim. The words you highlighted were my own. In fact, I'll quote you again:

With the fact that you once owned the gun being the only evidentiary tie to the crime...

It would appear that you are the one that brought up facts and evidence, not I, sir.

There may, however, be people on here that look at your assertion and believe that a BOS is not worth anything, and that's why I posted my disagreement.

And there may be people on here to look at your assertion and believe that a bill of sale is all that is required to keep them on the right side of law should things get sideways after the sale, and that's why I posted my position that the bill of sale, unless properly notarized, is just a piece of paper with some names on it that carries no legal weight.

It sounds like you have had an experience where once the bill of sale was produced, the police no longer considered you a person of interest and moved along. Please correct me if that is not a truthful or correct restatement of your post. That's great and I'm glad it worked out for you. But, your one anecdotal incident is not an indication of how any other's experiences will play out.

 

[Hoosierbuck]

Geeze. My experience is based on 15+ years as a prosecutor, not one sale.
Re-read my post, will you?
"In the real world, no piece of paper is going to be a magic get out of jail free card, but your assertion is absurd. With a purported bill of sale, you at least can give the police another tree to bark up. With the fact that you once owned the gun being the only evidentiary tie to the crime and a bill of sale, the police will move on with the investigation."
If you read that to say that IMO, producing a BOS will have this effect on the police: " So you hand them a piece of paper with a name written on it and they will automatically accept it as indisputable factual evidence that you no longer own the gun?", then you have a comprehension problem that is beyond my assistance. I didn't think it was that difficult. I'm done with this.
HB

 

[fastwally]

With or without a BOS everything has to be proven. If you have complied with In law for the sale there are other ways to prove you weren't involved, and just as effective as a piece of paper.

 

[GBuck]

You needn't be so sarcastic. Have you ever purchased a gun from a dealer, then eventually sold it to a private person? (A show of hands? Everybody? Great.)
If that gun turns up as part of a crime, it will be traced from the manufacturer to the distributor to the dealer...to you! Wouldn't you rather be able to show the police a scrap of paper that gives them the next lead in their investigation as opposed to being the end of the line, and having to be cleared by a thorough investigation?

Do what you want, but I use a simple BOS that has your name on it, and I'll see your ID/LTCH or we won't deal. My choice to require it, your choice to comply, no problem.

HB

Easy answer, 4473. If the ATF can get the serial number, the manufacturer tells them who they shipped it to, the store that received it tells them who they sold it to, your phone/doorbell rings. Simple as that.

If they can get the serial number of a firearm it will be traced to the original owner, usually very fast. Ask any FFL. I just had this conversation with an ATF agent in my house the other day.

**Hoosierbuck** and I were typing at the same time...

So, you guys are of the belief that some guy using a gun I sold him a year ago to shoot someone last night is going to be deemed a worthy undertaking for the ATF? It's simply not going to happen, and if you could find a citation showing where it happened I would be shocked. The ATF is not going to make a local murder a federal case. Yes, perhaps if you shoot an elected official or something, but federal warrants don't come easy, and they don't come cheap.