BATFE re: barrel length

[Jay]

Well, I got tired of scouring the ATF website, and called them this morning. I called the Indiana office 1-317-287-3500 and asked about measuring the length of a shotgun/rifle barrel and what exactly was required to determine barrel length. ( I wanted to know due to a relevant discussion on another web site.)

Agent Said...

"...we have all been trained to insert a dowel, or rod into the bore and against a closed,cocked action, with no shell in the chamber, mark the dowel, or rod and measure it. If the measurement leads us to believe the barrel is not of legal length, we'll confiscate the firearm, and send it to our tech center for legal length verification"

He also told me that he does not believe that the dowel rod method of measurement is mandated in print.

.....and, folks.... there ya have it....... from a field agent who may or may not know for sure........

 

[indyjoe]

I believe the only thing that is sure about the BATF is that they are not sure how they will enforce any of their rules.

 

[shooter521]

I believe the only thing that is sure about the BATF is that they are not sure how they will enforce any of their rules.

True, and those rules may or may not actually be written down, or written in a comprehensible manner.

The statement or opinion of a field-level ATF agent is worth approximately squat in terms of legal value. Hell, even the written "rulings" from the NFA Branch are pretty much arbitrary.

That said, the dowel rod method described above has been the commonly accepted practice for years. And though the agent above may not have mentioned it, any non-permanent muzzle device should be removed prior to measuring the barrel.

 

[koveras225]

Is there an acceptable margin of error in the measurement? For example, they measure a rifle barrel and it turns out to be 15 3/4" long. Is that something they're going to come down on you for?

 

[Scutter01]

We're talking the BATFE. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the margin for error is zero. On your part, anyway. On their part, the margin is whatever it takes to make you non-compliant.

 

[shooter521]

For example, they measure a rifle barrel and it turns out to be 15 3/4" long. Is that something they're going to come down on you for?

Ask Randy Weaver.

 

[koveras225]

Figures... Guess it's a good thing I don't have any 15 3/4" inch barrels now isn't it

 

[minuteman32]

Okay, now perhaps I think too much, but; if a rifle barrel can be 16" & a shotgun barrel can be 18", what about a rifled shotgun barrel? I guess that would make it a "destructive device, since it's > .50 Cal.!?
I know, a rifled shotgun barrel is still a shotgun barrel, and since it's for deer slugs it's not a "DD" ("sporting purpose" & all). I was just thinking out loud (well, sort of).

 

[Jay]

National Firearms Act of 1934...

"The Act defines a number of categories of regulated weapons. These weapons are collectively known as "Title II" weapons and include the following:

1. Machine guns - this includes any firearm which can fire more than 1 cartridge per trigger pull. Both continuous fully-automatic fire and "burst fire" (ie, weapons with a 3-round burst feature) are considered machine gun features.
2. Short barreled rifles (SBRs) - this category includes any weapon with a buttstock and either a rifled barrel under 16" long or an overall length under 26". The overall length is measured with any folding or collapsing stocks in the extended position. The category also includes weapons which came from the factory with a buttstock that was later removed by a third party.
3. Short barreled shotguns (SBSs) - this category is defined similarly to SBRs, but the length limit for the barrel is 18" instead of 16", and the barrel must be a smoothbore. The minimum overall length limit remains 26". "

 

[Ri22o]

Okay, now perhaps I think too much, but; if a rifle barrel can be 16" & a shotgun barrel can be 18", what about a rifled shotgun barrel? I guess that would make it a "destructive device, since it's > .50 Cal.!?
I know, a rifled shotgun barrel is still a shotgun barrel, and since it's for deer slugs it's not a "DD" ("sporting purpose" & all). I was just thinking out loud (well, sort of).

I have one better.

If you take an AOW (which requires never being registered a shotgun, therefore it is 'nothing') and put a rifled barrel on it, what does it make it? Is it now a pistol with a bore larger than .50?

 

[Ri22o]

National Firearms Act of 1934...

"The Act defines a number of categories of regulated weapons. These weapons are collectively known as "Title II" weapons and include the following:

1. Machine guns - this includes any firearm which can fire more than 1 cartridge per trigger pull. Both continuous fully-automatic fire and "burst fire" (ie, weapons with a 3-round burst feature) are considered machine gun features.
2. Short barreled rifles (SBRs) - this category includes any weapon with a buttstock and either a rifled barrel under 16" long or an overall length under 26". The overall length is measured with any folding or collapsing stocks in the extended position. The category also includes weapons which came from the factory with a buttstock that was later removed by a third party.
3. Short barreled shotguns (SBSs) - this category is defined similarly to SBRs, but the length limit for the barrel is 18" instead of 16", and the barrel must be a smoothbore. The minimum overall length limit remains 26". "

In regards to the SBR section. The way I read it, as long as the 'overall length is under 26"' it is considered an SBR. This means that barrel length alone does not make it an SBR, and since overall length is measured from the end of the barrel to the end of stock (adjustable stocks in the fully extended position) then as long as your stock adjusted long enough to make up for the shorter barrel length, it would technically not be considered an SBR because of their use of the word 'or'. There is also no limit to the length of the stock, which would make this plausible.

Am I completely wrong in my thinking? Has this been tried before? Anyone?

 

[Scutter01]

Moving this to the NFA forum.

 

[VUPDblue]

Ri220 you have the wrong definition of the word "or". A barrel less than 16" in length in and of itself makes the firearm an SBR.

 

[Ri22o]

Ri220 you have the wrong definition of the word "or". A barrel less than 16" in length in and of itself makes the firearm an SBR.

I have the wrong definition? How so? Or means one OR the other. In this case, it has a barrel shorter than 16" OR OAL shorter than 26".

 

[JetGirl]

Is there an acceptable margin of error in the measurement?

No.

 

[VUPDblue]

No, you have it right, you just are not comprehending. Barrel length alone does make it an SBR. If you have a 14" barrel, but the OAL is greater than 26", one definition of SBR has been met because of the short barrel.

 

[Ri22o]

No, you have it right, you just are not comprehending. Barrel length alone does make it an SBR. If you have a 14" barrel, but the OAL is greater than 26", one definition of SBR has been met because of the short barrel.

I see now. The key word is 'either'. I overlooked that.

I thought it was similar to "it depends on what the definition of 'is', is..."

 

[NateIU10]

I have the wrong definition? How so? Or means one OR the other. In this case, it has a barrel shorter than 16" OR OAL shorter than 26".

The rifle with a buttstock, having either OR of the two characteristics, makes it a SBR.

 

[rkba_net]

I have one better.

If you take an AOW (which requires never being registered a shotgun, therefore it is 'nothing') and put a rifled barrel on it, what does it make it? Is it now a pistol with a bore larger than .50?

It is now a DD... a firearm with a bore > 0.5, that fails the sporting test...

ON THE OTHER HAND... if you take a 410 "shotgun".... pistolgrip only and cut the barrel <18" AND put a RIFLED barrel on it you have a handgun... that is correct a 410 shotgun that never had a buttstock on it, that has a <18" RIFLED barrel is NOT an NFA weapon!!! A little know piece of NFA trivia....

 

[RonPaulSupporter]

ON THE OTHER HAND... if you take a 410 "shotgun".... pistolgrip only and cut the barrel <18" AND put a RIFLED barrel on it you have a handgun... that is correct a 410 shotgun that never had a buttstock on it, that has a <18" RIFLED barrel is NOT an NFA weapon!!! A little know piece of NFA trivia....

Or just buy a Taurus .410/.45 revolver and save yourself the trouble.
Kind of an interesting idea you have though, it's the like non-NFA version of a Serbu Super Shorty in .410 bore.