Thanks CM! Must---resist---comment--about---telegraph---and climbing the pole to send itIf it wasn't me somebody else woulda done it!!
OK that's hilarious right there.
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Atf decides to redefine common pistols as aow
- Thread starter Ggreen
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
OK that's hilarious right there.
There are a portion of gun owners that are willing to let others guns be taken away.....as long as they get to keep the guns they want. Cough...cough...those arguing AR/AK pistols should be forced to the NFA like their SBR's.
If someone is not willing to defend someone else's rights, then they don't deserve the rights they themselves have. Most soldiers who give their lives for this country do so with the knowledge that they were defending the rights of others.... rights they themselves may never use. Selling out the rights of others because you don't personally use that right is a self centered and narcissistic thing to do.
There appear to be even some here that don't see the inconsistency of supporting restrictions and obstacles to the practice of a natural right to the ownership of firearms (like the NFA) while rejecting any restrictions to other rights like freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Those same people would most likely be quite upset if they had to submit a report for government pre-approval and pay a $200 fee each time they would like to exercise their freedom of speech or their freedom of religion. Restrictions on freedom and liberty are wrong...all of them.
Many of these people don't even know how restricted our firearms freedoms have become in the last 100 years. Many including myself have learned this information and have had enough. We will no longer stand by and let our freedoms be further taken away. We will become even more active and politically involved and take every legal measure necessary to maintain and if at all possible regain our natural rights.
In 1934 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the National Firearms Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1938 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Federal Firearms Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1968 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Gun Control Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1986 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Firearms Owners Protection Act (protection by banning stuff???). But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1993 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1994 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (AKA assault weapons ban). Thankfully that was only in force from 1994-2004. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done and are still trying to reinstate it.
In 2019 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Bump Stock Ban. A ban that was not voted on by congress or in any legislation, but arbitrarily "written" into law by an unelected and unaccountable bureaucrat, while offering no grandfathering option breaking the ex-post-facto laws. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 2020 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." And right now we are seeing a stirring to ban pistol braces and all larger pistols. Are we once again going to idly stand by and let this happen like all the others? Those who do, those who refuse to defend the freedom of others even if they don't use that freedom, those are self centered, narcissistic people.
As you can see above, we have tried 7 times to compromise and it only came to us losing more rights while the other side gave nothing. The other side has worn that card out. There is no compromise that will ever be enough. They only continue to ask for more and more and more.
After losing a BIG chunk of our rights and trying this approach 7 different times, we as firearm owners have had enough. The anti-gun crowd has proven that they will never, never, never be satiated. And those who think that the anti-gun crowd will not ban NFA items the instant they have enough control are foolish. They have stated publicly many times they would LOVE to remove the NFA and ban all those items. How will that little $200 stamp save you when that happens?
The anti-gun crowd hunger, thirst and dream of gun control. And although they might be a minority of the population, the 2/3 of American's in the middle are apathetic enough they will not spend time, money, resources or clout to defend something that they themselves do not care about.
That is why many gun owners, including myself, believe that the time for compromise (including the NFA) is over. It is time to draw a line. And any politician who crosses that line will have a very, very hard time during their next election cycle. We will do everything we can to elect pro gun people into office and get these current anti-gun politicians voted out!
VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!
If someone is not willing to defend someone else's rights, then they don't deserve the rights they themselves have. Most soldiers who give their lives for this country do so with the knowledge that they were defending the rights of others.... rights they themselves may never use. Selling out the rights of others because you don't personally use that right is a self centered and narcissistic thing to do.
There appear to be even some here that don't see the inconsistency of supporting restrictions and obstacles to the practice of a natural right to the ownership of firearms (like the NFA) while rejecting any restrictions to other rights like freedom of speech and freedom of religion. Those same people would most likely be quite upset if they had to submit a report for government pre-approval and pay a $200 fee each time they would like to exercise their freedom of speech or their freedom of religion. Restrictions on freedom and liberty are wrong...all of them.
Many of these people don't even know how restricted our firearms freedoms have become in the last 100 years. Many including myself have learned this information and have had enough. We will no longer stand by and let our freedoms be further taken away. We will become even more active and politically involved and take every legal measure necessary to maintain and if at all possible regain our natural rights.
In 1934 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the National Firearms Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1938 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Federal Firearms Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1968 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Gun Control Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1986 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Firearms Owners Protection Act (protection by banning stuff???). But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1993 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 1994 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (AKA assault weapons ban). Thankfully that was only in force from 1994-2004. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done and are still trying to reinstate it.
In 2019 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." Then we got stuck with the Bump Stock Ban. A ban that was not voted on by congress or in any legislation, but arbitrarily "written" into law by an unelected and unaccountable bureaucrat, while offering no grandfathering option breaking the ex-post-facto laws. But the anti-gun folk were NOT done.
In 2020 people said "We pass this, and then we're done." And right now we are seeing a stirring to ban pistol braces and all larger pistols. Are we once again going to idly stand by and let this happen like all the others? Those who do, those who refuse to defend the freedom of others even if they don't use that freedom, those are self centered, narcissistic people.
As you can see above, we have tried 7 times to compromise and it only came to us losing more rights while the other side gave nothing. The other side has worn that card out. There is no compromise that will ever be enough. They only continue to ask for more and more and more.
After losing a BIG chunk of our rights and trying this approach 7 different times, we as firearm owners have had enough. The anti-gun crowd has proven that they will never, never, never be satiated. And those who think that the anti-gun crowd will not ban NFA items the instant they have enough control are foolish. They have stated publicly many times they would LOVE to remove the NFA and ban all those items. How will that little $200 stamp save you when that happens?
The anti-gun crowd hunger, thirst and dream of gun control. And although they might be a minority of the population, the 2/3 of American's in the middle are apathetic enough they will not spend time, money, resources or clout to defend something that they themselves do not care about.
That is why many gun owners, including myself, believe that the time for compromise (including the NFA) is over. It is time to draw a line. And any politician who crosses that line will have a very, very hard time during their next election cycle. We will do everything we can to elect pro gun people into office and get these current anti-gun politicians voted out!
VOTE! VOTE! VOTE!
... --- ... SOS is all the Morse code I know. Seems like the most important ones to know.
California DOJ sues ATF to make 80% lowers illegal nationwide
We must keep an eye on this case. It seems the California DOJ is suing the ATF and a 80% lower manufacturer in California...but in federal court instead of California court.
California DOJ is suing to have the ATF "re-define" incomplete lowers as firearms. The ATF seems real good at redefining things lately.
Based on the ATF's recent actions, it would not surprise me if they throw this case and don't push a negative ruling to a higher court.
ATF in their best feigned voice: "Oh my....looky there....somehow we forgot to protect freedom and now this big bad meany court is forcing us to ban 80% lowers. Oh well."
https://www.80percentarms.com/content/California_vs_ATF.pdf
We must keep an eye on this case. It seems the California DOJ is suing the ATF and a 80% lower manufacturer in California...but in federal court instead of California court.
California DOJ is suing to have the ATF "re-define" incomplete lowers as firearms. The ATF seems real good at redefining things lately.
Based on the ATF's recent actions, it would not surprise me if they throw this case and don't push a negative ruling to a higher court.
ATF in their best feigned voice: "Oh my....looky there....somehow we forgot to protect freedom and now this big bad meany court is forcing us to ban 80% lowers. Oh well."
https://www.80percentarms.com/content/California_vs_ATF.pdf
Got a canned response from Carson.
And my reply:
Mr Carson,
I appreciate your response. However I want to reiterate that laws being suggested by the ATF and the like this do not impact the common criminal, nor does it reduce gun violence.
- Recategorizing AR pistols into AOW or other NFA items wont impact crime; Once again, those firearms are not typically used in crimes.
- "Assault Weapons Bans": Per FBI crime reports hands, feet, and fists kill more people every year than all rifles combined (not just the scary black ones). Heck, hammers kill more people every year. Do we ban those too?
- Remember the last Assault Weapons Ban? Do you recall why it was allowed to sunset? Because it was found to do nothing to reduce crime. We already went down that road and know it doesnt help (see above), why do it again? This is the very definition of insanity; repeatedly doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
In all of the items above, they does more to impact honest, law abiding gun owners than actual criminals.
I have a better idea; How about we concentrate on enforcing existing gun laws? For example, fewer than 2% of attempts to purchase guns illegally are prosecuted. That is absolutely unacceptable. Also, many violent criminals are not prosecuted, or plead down to minor charges where the criminal is back on the street with no real punishment. Sometimes here in Indy, the criminals are even back on the street before the arresting officer ends his shift. That is infuriating.
I would be happy to to see REAL solutions that impact criminals and retain the freedoms granted to us by the constitution, NOT infringing laws that only impact innocent Americans as you suggest.
Respectfully,
And my reply:
Mr Carson,
I appreciate your response. However I want to reiterate that laws being suggested by the ATF and the like this do not impact the common criminal, nor does it reduce gun violence.
- Recategorizing AR pistols into AOW or other NFA items wont impact crime; Once again, those firearms are not typically used in crimes.
- "Assault Weapons Bans": Per FBI crime reports hands, feet, and fists kill more people every year than all rifles combined (not just the scary black ones). Heck, hammers kill more people every year. Do we ban those too?
- Remember the last Assault Weapons Ban? Do you recall why it was allowed to sunset? Because it was found to do nothing to reduce crime. We already went down that road and know it doesnt help (see above), why do it again? This is the very definition of insanity; repeatedly doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
In all of the items above, they does more to impact honest, law abiding gun owners than actual criminals.
I have a better idea; How about we concentrate on enforcing existing gun laws? For example, fewer than 2% of attempts to purchase guns illegally are prosecuted. That is absolutely unacceptable. Also, many violent criminals are not prosecuted, or plead down to minor charges where the criminal is back on the street with no real punishment. Sometimes here in Indy, the criminals are even back on the street before the arresting officer ends his shift. That is infuriating.
I would be happy to to see REAL solutions that impact criminals and retain the freedoms granted to us by the constitution, NOT infringing laws that only impact innocent Americans as you suggest.
Respectfully,
I received this email from Sen. Braun today...
Dear ---------,
As a Hoosier constituent who has contacted my office in the past regarding Second Amendment issues I wanted to update you on an issue I’ve been working on in D.C. on yourbehalf.
Recently, a group of Hoosiers contacted me concerned about the ATF’s actions concerning the Honey Badger Pistol and non-public standards being used at the agency. My office has looked into it and agreed that this position from the ATF should be clarified and I have requested specific information as you will see below.
I am an avid hunter, a National Rifle Association member, and stand in support of the Second Amendment. In the Senate, I will oppose efforts to restrict the rights of law-abiding gun owners and willprotect their ability to defend themselves and their families in life-threatening situations.
According to a letter sent by the ATF to Q, LLC, “The Firearms and Ammunitions Technology Division (FATD) examined the Honey Badger Pistol manufactured and marketed by Q, LLC and determined the firearm is a short-barreled rifle as defined under the NFA. A short-barreled rifle is subject to the registration, transfer, taxation, and possession restrictions regarding these regulated firearms, which include criminal penalties relating to the illegal transfer and possession of said firearms.”
The ATF has yet to specifically clarify what constitutes as an “AR styled pistol” besides taking the approach of “you know it when you see it.” I believe the ATF must clearly and distinctly articulate their position, and inform the public of said stances and regulations. A “know it when you see it” approach to firearms by the ATF is ambiguous and can quickly become a slippery-slope for all legal gun owners.
I have inquired about this guidance with the Department of Justice, more specifically the ATF, to ensure that Hoosier gun owners are in compliance with law, while eliminating any needless ambiguity within ATF regulatory language. I have been working with key members of congress in order to get more clarity from the ATF on this specific issue. You can find my letter to the ATF attached below and here.
Thank you for contacting my office. It is an honor to serve as your U.S. Senator from Indiana. Please keep in touch with me on issues of concern to you. You can also follow me on Twitter or Facebook for real-time updates on my activities in the U.S. Senate. If I ever may be of service, please do not hesitate to contact me.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Sincerely,
Mike Braun
U.S. Senator
Dear ---------,
As a Hoosier constituent who has contacted my office in the past regarding Second Amendment issues I wanted to update you on an issue I’ve been working on in D.C. on yourbehalf.
Recently, a group of Hoosiers contacted me concerned about the ATF’s actions concerning the Honey Badger Pistol and non-public standards being used at the agency. My office has looked into it and agreed that this position from the ATF should be clarified and I have requested specific information as you will see below.
I am an avid hunter, a National Rifle Association member, and stand in support of the Second Amendment. In the Senate, I will oppose efforts to restrict the rights of law-abiding gun owners and willprotect their ability to defend themselves and their families in life-threatening situations.
According to a letter sent by the ATF to Q, LLC, “The Firearms and Ammunitions Technology Division (FATD) examined the Honey Badger Pistol manufactured and marketed by Q, LLC and determined the firearm is a short-barreled rifle as defined under the NFA. A short-barreled rifle is subject to the registration, transfer, taxation, and possession restrictions regarding these regulated firearms, which include criminal penalties relating to the illegal transfer and possession of said firearms.”
The ATF has yet to specifically clarify what constitutes as an “AR styled pistol” besides taking the approach of “you know it when you see it.” I believe the ATF must clearly and distinctly articulate their position, and inform the public of said stances and regulations. A “know it when you see it” approach to firearms by the ATF is ambiguous and can quickly become a slippery-slope for all legal gun owners.
I have inquired about this guidance with the Department of Justice, more specifically the ATF, to ensure that Hoosier gun owners are in compliance with law, while eliminating any needless ambiguity within ATF regulatory language. I have been working with key members of congress in order to get more clarity from the ATF on this specific issue. You can find my letter to the ATF attached below and here.
Thank you for contacting my office. It is an honor to serve as your U.S. Senator from Indiana. Please keep in touch with me on issues of concern to you. You can also follow me on Twitter or Facebook for real-time updates on my activities in the U.S. Senate. If I ever may be of service, please do not hesitate to contact me.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
Sincerely,
Mike Braun
U.S. Senator
I still wonder if this is fanning flames that we do not need to fan at this time?
Are we giving a new anti-gun administration things to aim at that they might not otherwise know even exists?
We ask the ATF to clarify, they coordinate with our incoming VP, then they reply with "braced pistols ARE SBR's..." Grrrr....
Are we giving a new anti-gun administration things to aim at that they might not otherwise know even exists?
We ask the ATF to clarify, they coordinate with our incoming VP, then they reply with "braced pistols ARE SBR's..." Grrrr....
Last edited:
Respectfully senator, this is nonsense. The responsibility to clarify the language belongs to you and the rest of your colleagues in Congress, not the ATF. Especially not an ATF soon to be led by a Biden Administration.
Easiest way to clear up any misunderstandings would be to repeal the NFA, but we know you don't have the desire to do that, nevermind the lack of will.
So now what?
You're kidding yourself if you don't think folks coming in with Biden know about braces. They are simply dusting off what they already had in the drawer for Hillary before Trump spoiled things. They see brace bans as an easy way to get the gun restrictions rolling and they have for years.
This. There was a leaked video a couple weeks ago of a meeting between the ATF and biden's team. They are already working directly. I presume on his AWB2.0.
I don't think so. Until we tell them otherwise, they think they are all black rifles. They didn't know a pistol from a rifle until we tell them.
They may well hate black rifles, but just ask an anti-gunner to define an AR pistol. They can't do it.
Last edited:
Jericho941Fan
Plinker
I have 1 in ATF jail and one that I am awaiting delivery at my SOT so that I can file a form 4 for. Hopefully I didn't delay too long.
Site Supporter
Staff online
-
d.kaufmanStill Here
Members online
- joe138
- Goodcat
- tge45
- jcj54
- tthomas1809
- AFvet3366
- Greg1
- Zackerpacker002
- indyblue
- flint stonez
- 12many
- INgunowner
- Winamac
- loudgroove
- Twinks46975
- Timjoebillybob
- OneBadV8
- snowdrifter
- medavis428@
- DoggyDaddy
- garagegunmaker
- Reale1741
- EyeCarry
- BAgun
- Hoosier8
- yeahbaby
- Magyars
- d.kaufman
- nra4ever
- jamin
- derrickgoins
- bwframe
- Count Blackula
- XDdreams
- Goldbomb79
- B40B
- Combat Engineer
- Whip_McCord
- IMPD31323
- darkkevin
- tmschuller
- bigretic
- jbm1521
- ChrisK
- crookcountygo
- BillD
- KLB
- CoachMike
- Buckshost2825
- BravoOneFour
