AIMED Point shooting question

[cce1302]

I'm talking about the point shooting technique that is promoted by some that uses the middle finger to pull the trigger, and uses the trigger finger to lay along the side of the gun and point at the target.
Where do you put your middle finger when you aren't shooting? How do you keep it straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire? The trigger finger already takes up the spot where it normally would be, above the trigger. Do you wrap it around the grip? Do you put it up next to your trigger finger? Do you just leave it on the trigger? None of those feels right or seems like a good idea to me.

 

[JosephR]

It's a hoax propagated by the Obama regime.

 

[shooter521]

I'm talking about the point shooting technique that is promoted by some that uses the middle finger to pull the trigger, and uses the trigger finger to lay along the side of the gun and point at the target.

None of those feels right or seems like a good idea to me.

Exactly!

 

[Shay]

Even the diehard point shooting guys think this technique is goofy. I prefer to grip my gun and use my sights.

 

[Steve MI]

Even the diehard point shooting guys think this technique is goofy. I prefer to grip my gun and use my sights.

No say it isnt so? you mean that under stress you can see your sight obtain a firing grip move/shoot shoot/move and make hits its, its not possible it cant be done.......

 

[rhino]

No say it isnt so? you mean that under stress you can see your sight obtain a firing grip move/shoot shoot/move and make hits its, its not possible it cant be done.......

That's why I had mine removed . . . clearly it's impossible to see or use the sights under stress . . . BECAUSE THEY SAID SO! The bonus is that it hurts less to extricate the gun after a big guy takes it away from me and inserts it somewhere that it should not go.

 

[GIJEW]

Use the MIDDLE finger to pull the trigger????!!!!!!!! Where/who did you hear this from? Forget the aim-vs-point debate--NO technique works without good trigger control.

 

[cce1302]

Use the MIDDLE finger to pull the trigger????!!!!!!!! Where/who did you hear this from? Forget the aim-vs-point debate--NO technique works without good trigger control.

This guy:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...auto-pistols_-_james_yeager-6.html#post387909

I was hoping he'd come back and explain himself.
Also here:
AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense

HOW P&S WORKS?
You just place your index finger along the side of the gun, point at COM (Center of Mass), and pull the trigger with your middle or opposite hand index finger.

That's all there is to it. Point-n-pull. Point-n-pull. No more, no less.
And you will get both correct sight alignment and sight placement automatically.
That is because the sights are normally in correct alignment and in parallel with the barrel. So, when the index finger is extended along the side of a gun, the index finger, barrel, and the sights will be in parallel. And since we can point automatically and accurately at things, the gun barrel will be AIMED at anything pointed at.

On his site he also claims that the 1911 has a design flaw because he can't use his "technique" without jamming it up or something.
AIMED Point Shooting or P&S

 

[slow1911s]

Someone who's been in more gunfights than just about anyone has a few thoughts on the subject:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI]YouTube - Some thoughts on point shooting[/ame]

 

[5shot]

Sorry for not getting here sooner.

As to the middle finger, just keep it along side the gun like you do index finger. As to that not seeming to be natural, I imagine that's because you have been trained by trainers and more importantly TV and the movies and your peers to use your index finger on the trigger.

The following which is from an article explaining why placing the first pad of your finger on the trigger can affect accuracy negatively, and explains a lot about the middle finger and why it is an excellent candidate for doing its job of giving the bad guys the terminal bird.


When you first squeeze or pull the trigger, the end of your finger does not move directly back against the trigger. It moves in an arc.

That happens because of the physical arrangement of the muscles and tendons of the fingers which are put into play when a finger is flexed.

The middle portion of a finger always flexes first, as the middle knuckle is its fulcrum. As such, the first movement of the end of the finger will be an arc that has as its center point, the middle knuckle.

Only after the middle portion of the finger has flexed some, can the end of the finger begin to flex more directly back against the trigger.

As such, placing the crease between the first and second pad of the finger on the trigger, or placing the middle pad of the finger on the trigger can reduce the amount of arc that is introduced when the finger is flexed to pull the trigger.

Using the middle finger to pull the trigger, can help with this situation.

1. It is longer than the index finger, so it is easier to place the crease between the first and second pads of the middle finger on the trigger, or to place the second pad on the trigger.

2. The tendon used to flex the middle finger, runs more directly from the front to the back of the hand than the tendon used to flex the index finger. So less torque will be introduced if the middle finger is used to pull the trigger. That can be important with a heavy trigger pull, such as with a double action gun where the trigger finger is used to both cock and fire the gun.

3. The middle finger is also stronger than the index finger which helps to make for a smooth and sure pull of the trigger against considerable resistance.

Walter J. Dorfner, the long time lead firearms instructor for the VSP, now retired and deceased, had this to say in his paper on Point Shooting about field tests using the index and middle fingers to pull the trigger.

Field Shooting With the Index Finger

When using the index finger to shoot, one can induce error by having too much or too little of the finger on the trigger.

As the trigger is pulled, the curling action of the finger tip can cause the weapon to be pushed or pulled off target center.

The amount of error is relative to the trigger weight. More error is introduced with double action firing when 10 or more pounds of force are needed to cock and fire the weapon, than there is with single action firing, when 3 or 4 pounds of force are needed to fire the weapon.

Field Shooting With the Middle Finger

When the middle pad of the middle finger was placed on the trigger, the force needed with double action to cock and fire the weapon, felt much lighter than the measured 12 pounds.

With single action, the 4 pound force that was needed to fire the weapon, felt like simple air resistance.

Also, as the middle pad of the finger was on the trigger, the curling action of the tip of the finger did not affect the fall of the shot.

Another benefit was that the centerline bore was more closely aligned with the web of the hand. That provided for both a natural pointing of the weapon and better control of recoil forces.

New shooters with limited hand strength, had a problem pulling the trigger smoothly with double action when the index finger was used to pull the trigger. That was not true when the middle finger was used to pull the trigger.

4. Further, using the middle finger to pull the trigger, allows for direct communication of that action to the nerves that control the flexing or bending of the fingers. That is not true when the index finger is used to pull the trigger.

And here is a brief note on why that is so.

There are two nerves (Median and Ulnar), that control the flexing or bending of the fingers. Each one controls only half of the hand. One supplies the thumb side of the hand, and the other supplies the little finger side of the hand.

As the middle finger is in the middle of the hand, one side of it is supplied by one nerve, and the other side by the other nerve. That provides for direct communication with both nerves when the middle finger is used to pull the trigger.

Also, the extension of the first two pads of the fingers, is also controlled by those two nerves. This is an exception to their main function of controlling flexing or bending actions.

The result is that both the extension and bending of the first two pads of the fingers, are controlled by those two nerves.

These muscle and nerve arrangements, dovetail perfectly with P&S.

The gun can be grasped and locked onto.

The index finger can be extended separately for aiming and providing strength to the grip. That also helps maintain the balance, symmetry, and integrity of the grip.
The gun also will be held in a strong pincer made up by the index finger, the web of the hand, and the thumb, which will give the shooter a strong and level shooting platform.

...................

As to the P&S method, here's some info that provides a rationale as to why it's not well know in the US though it's documented as being used since 1804.

I support all kinds of Point Shooting and in particular P&S which is the simplest of the bunch, and it can be used with all of them to enhance them, Sight Shooting 2.

Point Shooting is easy to learn, but don't expect it to happen by magic when you are facing a life threat at CQ. That could prove to be fatal.

Note that with P&S, you automatically get correct sight alignment and sight placement, since the sights and barrel are in alignment, and will keep that alignment when your index finger is placed alongside the gun, and you then point fast automatically and accurately, as we all can naturally.

It's brain dead simple, can be learned with little or no training, and once learned you don't forget it. As to trigger control, I don't know what that is. I just pull it when Point Shooting. And the grip used is a very strong 4 fingered grip, not your weak "sissy" 3 fingered MT grip.

As to using the sights, the Army says that at night and at < 15 feet (which is the distance per the stats, wherein 90% of officers are killed in gunfights), you should use a two handed Isso. And that can be learned with little if any training.

Per the SOP 9: From Sept 1854 to Dec 1979, 254 officers died from wounds received in an armed encounter. The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than 15 feet. To me that means if you are going to be shot and or killed in a gunfight, it will happen at < 15 feet. And most all gunfights occur at < 21 feet.

Also, per the NYPD SOP 9, in a review of around 200 cases, they were unable to establish a link between range performance and on the street performance.

Sight Shooting which they were taught, was not used in most all of 5000+ cases studied.

As to the 1911, I just put together a chronology of P&S. It has been used since 1804 AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Chronology It contains a bunch of references to its use, and several cautions against it use, all of which are found in US military manuals on how to use the 1911.

The 1911 was adopted by the US Military in 1911, and was the standard-issue side arm from 1911 to 1985.

IMHO, the 1911 has a design flaw, because its design excludes the use of the index finger along the side of the 1911 for aiming which is done with P&S. As such, P&S was squelched from 1912 to 1985.

Suppressing or prohibiting the use of a known and effective shooting method for use in CQ life threat situations, to accommodate a weapon, rather than making a minor modification to a weapon to accommodate those who go in harms way, makes absolutely no sense.

Further, once established as dogma, institutionalized practices and behaviors can be almost insurmountable obstacles to change, and particularly in strict heirarchial organizations which deal with life and death matters.

Additionally, you can expect that those who were taught, and now teach those traditional methods can be expected to defend them. And they can be expected to slam any upstart who questions the established methods (Sight Shooting), and even if it has been proven by scientific investigation and studies and environmental conditions, to be UNABLE TO BE USED in those situations where there is the greatest likelyhood of being shot and/or killed.

And their associates can be expected out of fellowship, to do the same.

Are there exceptions, sure, but they should be few and far between for those of us who are mere mortals, and for the average joe home defender type.

If you are SWAT, or a SEAL or some superior operator type, and train as they do, I trust that you are good to go.

Here is a link to more info on the design flaw of the 1911, http://www.pointshooting.com/1911.htm

 

[kingnereli]

5shot,

I have tried to keep an open mind about this technique. I have tried it on occasion and and looked into it in the past. It's just not a good idea. It approaches the level of silliness. Most of us train to a certain extent without sights. That is, really close proximity to the target, from the second and third position in the good old fashion four point strong side draw. That being said, to advocate NEVER using sights is foolish. As well as speaking in absolute terms saying it is impossible to use sights effectively under stress. If you have time to get your arms to full extension you can and should make use of the sights. It becomes quite automatic with practice.

Furthermore, the middle finger is not as capable of precise trigger control as the index finger. Especially when using the first joint as the contact point as suggested in your last post. It is possible to use the pad of the index finger to press the trigger directly rearward. The fact that the P&S system passes along information that is simply not accurate does not lend itself to any credence. I'm sure there are cases where this method can be used effectively but I am skeptical of its range. I'm aware that most gunfights happen within "conversational distances" but I am comforted with being able to shooting with speed at some extended ranges. I am curios if a point shooter can make quick hits at 20-30 yards. For me, at least, I have to use my sights for that.

Furthermore, faulting the 1911 for being incompatible with this method is nonsensical. Its design has its weak points like any other, but saying it has a design flaw basically because it's not the size of a "broomhandle" is...well, nonsensical. I honestly don't know how much to discredit this method because I haven't put an exorbitant amount of time into it, but your description of it doesn't make me optimistic.

 

[5shot]

I was going to start a new thread with the following, but this seems to be a good place for it.

I'm looking for pics - films - videos of Sight Shooting + other shooting methods being used effectively in real close quarters gunfights.

I have added a page to my site which will have links to them. Here's the URL: http//:AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense

You should be able to see hundreds to thousands of pics and videos of Sight Shooting, since Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years; and film and videos have been around for at least 50 of those years.

And as there are million and millions of handgun owners in the U.S. of A., there is a giant pool of possibilities to draw from, plus there are thousands of handgun trainers.

Even the NRA can participate as they offer handgun training via NRA certified handgun instructors, and as I understand the situation, Sight Shooting is the main shooting method taught.

Now realistically, I don't except much if any response as I have been involved in the area of close quarters self defense for 10+ years, I have yet to run across even one pic or video of Sight Shooting used effectively in a real close quarters gunfight. I have a patent for a handgun aiming aid that was patented back in 2000, so you can count me as more than just an interested bystander in regards to handgun self defense use.

My only aim is to determine/use the method/s that provides the best chance of aiming and shooting accurately at close quarters in a real life threat close quarters situation, becasue it is in CQ situations where the likely hood of your being shot and/or killed is the greatest.

..........

Per NYPD statistics, 75% of gunfights occur at less than 20 feet, and if you are going to be shot and killed, there is an 81% chance that it will be at less than 6 feet, and a 90% chance that it will be at less than 15 feet.

The only savings grace is that the mis rate in armed encounters is more than 80%. That means that for every five bullets fired at a target, four+ go somewhere else. So, unless you are having a very unlucky day, chances are you will not be in a gunfight, and if you are, you will survive.

..........

So, I would appreciate it if you or anyone could provide me with URL's to place on mynew page of Sight Shooting and/or other shooting methods, being used effectively in real close quarters gunfights.

I will check them out, and if they appear to be factual and fair as to their presentation, I will add them to the top portion of the page.

Rejects will be added at the bottom of the page if appropriate for viewing by the general public.

Please send them to ps (at) pointshooting.com

I also would appreciate being sent URL's to Pics - Videos - Films that show alternate shooting methods, such as FAS, QK, CAR, P&S, ..., that also show them to be effective in close quarters gunfight situations.

I will add them as links below those showing Sight Shooting being used effectively.

The method being used does not have to finely defined. For example, there are two pics on the new page of alternate methods being used.

In one, Jack Ruby is using P&S to shoot and kill Oswald. A close examination of the photos discloses the he truly is using P&S. In the second photo, it is obvious that a drugstore guard is using a modified two handed isso grip to dispatch a robber.

Would be nice to know that the shooting method you plan to use to defend your life and your loved ones, has actually been used in close quarters combat. Trust but verify makes sense.

Just saying something is so, doesn't make it so, now-a-days in the age of the electron.

 

[cce1302]

Here's how I shoot. It's proven.
YouTube - Gangsta Shooting Range
YouTube - Bloods & Crips - Shooting
YouTube - Straight Gangsta style
YouTube - HOW TO SHOOT LIKE A GANGSTA!
It's battle tested:
YouTube - Firing the M-9 gangsta style