Accuracy - where do you start?

[injb]

I'm close to reloading my first batch of ammo. I'm doing .223 for my AR-15 first to get the hang of the basics because the components are cheap and easy to get. But ultimately I'm more interested in reloading for old military rifles (mostly bolt actions, but also the M1 Garand).

Now that I understand the basics of how to do it safely, my question is, in what order should I start to experiment with the dizzying array of variables here? For most calibers, we have at least 4 or 5 bullet choices, a dozen powder types, with at least 4 loads for each type, and then things like overall length which can vary by maybe .030 in increments of just a few thousandths. And that's without getting into questions like annealing, resizing options, crimping etc. Fine, that stuff can wait.

But I still have like

5 x 12 x 4 x 10 = 2400 different ways I can load a cartridge. Even if I could compare 2 loads with just a single 5 round group each (which I can't) that would still mean I'd have to load 10,000 rounds to find out the best load.

I already know a few things: I'm not going for competitive accuracy (I shoot at 50 or 100 yards), and I prefer lighter loads/lighter bullets.

But I'd still like to know what are the rules of thumb here. Do you go bullet weight->powder type->powder load, and then tweak from there? Or some other order? Is it worth trying a lot of different powder brands, or do you just categorize them roughly by speed?

 

[DadSmith]

I'm close to reloading my first batch of ammo. I'm doing .223 for my AR-15 first to get the hang of the basics because the components are cheap and easy to get. But ultimately I'm more interested in reloading for old military rifles (mostly bolt actions, but also the M1 Garand).

Now that I understand the basics of how to do it safely, my question is, in what order should I start to experiment with the dizzying array of variables here? For most calibers, we have at least 4 or 5 bullet choices, a dozen powder types, with at least 4 loads for each type, and then things like overall length which can vary by maybe .030 in increments of just a few thousandths. And that's without getting into questions like annealing, resizing options, crimping etc. Fine, that stuff can wait.

But I still have like

5 x 12 x 4 x 10 = 2400 different ways I can load a cartridge. Even if I could compare 2 loads with just a single 5 round group each (which I can't) that would still mean I'd have to load 10,000 rounds to find out the best load.

I already know a few things: I'm not going for competitive accuracy (I shoot at 50 or 100 yards), and I prefer lighter loads/lighter bullets.

But I'd still like to know what are the rules of thumb here. Do you go bullet weight->powder type->powder load, and then tweak from there? Or some other order? Is it worth trying a lot of different powder brands, or do you just categorize them roughly by speed?

What twist rate is your barrel or barrels you will be using? Different twist rates play a roll in weight of bullets they stabilize, and shoot more accurately.

I first find the twist rate then buy the bullets that best suit the that barrels twist rate.

My rifles like 75gr Speer TMJBT, 75gr Hornady match, Sierra 77gr MK. They are all 1-8 twist.

Next is brass. I usually buy mixed brand brass once fired then I separate them, and do case prep.
Powder is usually TAC, 8208xbr, CFE 223 and Varget. I tend to start mid charge weight and load 10 rds at 0.2gr increments, and test velocity, and SD with a chrony, and accuracy. 50yds or 100yds both are fine. I prefer 50yd zero for my optics with 223. You can shoot 50yds to 200yds with the same zero.
Primers right now are any you can get your hands on to use. Work with what you have.

 

[2in1evtime]

Powder burn speeds are another thing you will need to be concerned with.
Are you going to use a chronograph?
I load for multiple military firearms, at times the books wont give you the best load for your type of firearm, as barrel lengths are different, some actions tighter or looser,ect. this is why i use a lab nada chrony.
and there will be tons of deviations for you to find.
every load book i have from different manufactures give me different load values for same powders and bullet designs. this will be another thing you will need to watch for, suggest to get more than one book and compare load data.
I enjoy reloading, been times i get frustrated but it passes.
good luck with your endeavor

 

[injb]

What twist rate is your barrel or barrels you will be using? Different twist rates play a roll in weight of bullets they stabilize, and shoot more accurately.

I first find the twist rate then buy the bullets that best suit the that barrels twist rate.

My rifles like 75gr Speer TMJBT, 75gr Hornady match, Sierra 77gr MK. They are all 1-8 twist.

Next is brass. I usually buy mixed brand brass once fired then I separate them, and do case prep.
Powder is usually TAC, 8208xbr, CFE 223 and Varget. I tend to start mid charge weight and load 10 rds at 0.2gr increments, and test velocity, and SD with a chrony, and accuracy. 50yds or 100yds both are fine. I prefer 50yd zero for my optics with 223. You can shoot 50yds to 200yds with the same zero.
Primers right now are any you can get your hands on to use. Work with what you have.

I didn't know brass was another variable here. I mean I've been keeping my fired brass together in batches but I thought that was more for the sake of keeping tracking of the # of firings. I didn't realize it would affect accuracy. Is there really a big difference? How does that work?

Powder burn speeds are another thing you will need to be concerned with.
Are you going to use a chronograph?
I load for multiple military firearms, at times the books wont give you the best load for your type of firearm, as barrel lengths are different, some actions tighter or looser,ect. this is why i use a lab nada chrony.
and there will be tons of deviations for you to find.
every load book i have from different manufactures give me different load values for same powders and bullet designs. this will be another thing you will need to watch for, suggest to get more than one book and compare load data.
I enjoy reloading, been times i get frustrated but it passes.
good luck with your endeavor

Re powder speeds - that's why I was asking about categorizing powder by speed. If the book has a dozen different powders, do I need to test them all, or just test those that differ significantly in speed? What other variables are there in the powder type besides speed?

As far as the chronograph goes, I don't really understand what they're for tbh. I mean, I get that they measure speed, but why? I'm not going to shoot without looking at the group I get on paper, so what does speed tell me that the group size doesn't?

 

[2in1evtime]

The lee reloading manual the first powder and load listed is considered the top loads, speer book tells you the best powder for loads, nosler does also, i pretty much quit using the hornady book{personal reasons} Lyman will give you best to worst loads also. Be very careful reloading for Garands they can be sensitive to some loads. I do not load any ammo to full spec on any milsurp rifles myself.

A chronograph will give you data on the speed of your bullets for one, shooting in 10 shot groups and you will see any variation, variation can be caused by a plus or minus in powder, case thickness, neck tension and crimp for starters, if your finding a wide range in speed something isn't right on your end reloading.

 

[injb]

The lee reloading manual the first powder and load listed is considered the top loads, speer book tells you the best powder for loads, nosler does also, i pretty much quit using the hornady book{personal reasons} Lyman will give you best to worst loads also. Be very careful reloading for Garands they can be sensitive to some loads. I do not load any ammo to full spec on any milsurp rifles myself.

A chronograph will give you data on the speed of your bullets for one, shooting in 10 shot groups and you will see any variation, variation can be caused by a plus or minus in powder, case thickness, neck tension and crimp for starters, if your finding a wide range in speed something isn't right on your end reloading.

Are you saying a difference in speed that's not big enough to show up in group size is still important? I hadn't thought about that.

 

[2in1evtime]

I shoot long range matches mostly money shoots, what i have given you is the bare minimum to consider, you can gt into turning necks, shoulder bumping, chamber enhancement and a lot of other multiple items to deal with.

yes thicker walled cases will produce more pressure because your using the same amount of powder in it as you would a thinner walled case, i weigh my cases to keep lots as close together as possible, a change in powder grain weight will change your point of impact.

lee book as a example H4895 start gr is 24.0 to 26.oc {c means compressed.] This the fist line so it is what lee says is best load for this bulet and this is in .223 . I do shoot this load max compressed out od a ar 24" barrel and it is accurate, out of a carbine 16" it does ok all my ar's have either a 1/7 or 1/8 pitch also

 

[ntrngr]

I'm close to reloading my first batch of ammo. I'm doing .223 for my AR-15 first to get the hang of the basics because the components are cheap and easy to get. But ultimately I'm more interested in reloading for old military rifles (mostly bolt actions, but also the M1 Garand).

Now that I understand the basics of how to do it safely, my question is, in what order should I start to experiment with the dizzying array of variables here? For most calibers, we have at least 4 or 5 bullet choices, a dozen powder types, with at least 4 loads for each type, and then things like overall length which can vary by maybe .030 in increments of just a few thousandths. And that's without getting into questions like annealing, resizing options, crimping etc. Fine, that stuff can wait.

But I still have like

5 x 12 x 4 x 10 = 2400 different ways I can load a cartridge. Even if I could compare 2 loads with just a single 5 round group each (which I can't) that would still mean I'd have to load 10,000 rounds to find out the best load.

I already know a few things: I'm not going for competitive accuracy (I shoot at 50 or 100 yards), and I prefer lighter loads/lighter bullets.

But I'd still like to know what are the rules of thumb here. Do you go bullet weight->powder type->powder load, and then tweak from there? Or some other order? Is it worth trying a lot of different powder brands, or do you just categorize them roughly by speed?

Stick to standard bullet weights.
Slower powders are better as long as you can get enough in the casing to get your needed pressure.
You want to make sure your powder charge mostly fills the casing.
Learn to read your pressures. I use primer comparisons and micrometer readings on the head of the casings.
Move your charges up slow. 2 grains until you show a little pressure (flattened primer) then 1 grain until you're really forging it out. By then you should be good.

Guns + bullets + powders have what I like to call a "resonance". Once you get decent pressure, you can keep raising the charge and shooting 3 or 5 shot groups to get the most accuracy you want. The "resonance" factor really comes into play with pistols.

Oh, and when the loading manual says "Never Exceed" what that means is if you don't know how to read pressure, don't go pas there. I have seen situation where you could exceed the "Never Exceed" charge by 20%. But, pay attention. Mic the heads. Don't resize your cases too far or too much. In autoloaders FL sizing is a must, but, its stresses the crap out of the cases. Only size them enough. Don't run them clear down into the FL die. Your brass won't last long and you'll have to trim them frequently too.

Good luck! Have fun! Be safe!

-NR

 

[injb]

Stick to standard bullet weights.
Slower powders are better as long as you can get enough in the casing to get your needed pressure.
You want to make sure your powder charge mostly fills the casing.
Learn to read your pressures. I use primer comparisons and micrometer readings on the head of the casings.
Move your charges up slow. 2 grains until you show a little pressure (flattened primer) then 1 grain until you're really forging it out. By then you should be good.

Guns + bullets + powders have what I like to call a "resonance". Once you get decent pressure, you can keep raising the charge and shooting 3 or 5 shot groups to get the most accuracy you want. The "resonance" factor really comes into play with pistols.

Oh, and when the loading manual says "Never Exceed" what that means is if you don't know how to read pressure, don't go pas there. I have seen situation where you could exceed the "Never Exceed" charge by 20%. But, pay attention. Mic the heads. Don't resize your cases too far or too much. In autoloaders FL sizing is a must, but, its stresses the crap out of the cases. Only size them enough. Don't run them clear down into the FL die. Your brass won't last long and you'll have to trim them frequently too.

Good luck! Have fun! Be safe!

-NR

How do you know the speed of a powder? I hear people talking about "faster" and "slower" powders all the time, but there's nothing in the loading data I have seen about that. I don't see anything on the label of the powder I have either. Where do you get that information?

 

[Leadeye]

How do you know the speed of a powder? I hear people talking about "faster" and "slower" powders all the time, but there's nothing in the loading data I have seen about that. I don't see anything on the label of the powder I have either. Where do you get that information?

Most reloading manuals will have a powder burn speed chart in them somewhere.

 

[billybob44]

I didn't know brass was another variable here. I mean I've been keeping my fired brass together in batches but I thought that was more for the sake of keeping tracking of the # of firings. I didn't realize it would affect accuracy. Is there really a big difference? How does that work?



Re powder speeds - that's why I was asking about categorizing powder by speed. If the book has a dozen different powders, do I need to test them all, or just test those that differ significantly in speed? What other variables are there in the powder type besides speed?

As far as the chronograph goes, I don't really understand what they're for tbh. I mean, I get that they measure speed, but why? I'm not going to shoot without looking at the group I get on paper, so what does speed tell me that the group size doesn't?

https://www.youtube.com/@JohnnysReloadingBench/featured

^^^Here's where you want to go=Especially for .223 Rem./5.56 NATO loads.
I have handloaded for close to 50 years, and this Guy is GREAT on information for me..Bill.

 

[turnerdye1]

I second Johnnys Reloading Bench. Super easy to listen to and is humorous. Does tons of testing in 300BLK too

 

[injb]

Most reloading manuals will have a powder burn speed chart in them somewhere.

You're right, I found it in the back of the Lyman manual. Besides speed and physical shape, what other variables does powder have? For instance, if two powders are next to each other on the list, does that mean they're close enough that I can swap one for the other and expect about the same pressure? How far apart do they need to be before I'll get noticeably different results?

https://www.youtube.com/@JohnnysReloadingBench/featured

^^^Here's where you want to go=Especially for .223 Rem./5.56 NATO loads.
I have handloaded for close to 50 years, and this Guy is GREAT on information for me..Bill.

Thanks, that's a great channel. Just the right level of detail for me.

 

[Leadeye]

You're right, I found it in the back of the Lyman manual. Besides speed and physical shape, what other variables does powder have? For instance, if two powders are next to each other on the list, does that mean they're close enough that I can swap one for the other and expect about the same pressure? How far apart do they need to be before I'll get noticeably different results?



Thanks, that's a great channel. Just the right level of detail for me.

For me, how consistently they run through a powder measure is important. IMR propellants don't do as well as ball propellants in this area, particularly at lower measurement levels. That said, I use a lot of 3031 in 30-32 caliber stuff, but it's weighted on a charge master.

 

[indyblue]

Since most load data uses 24" test barrel, how should I use that data for my 16"/1:7 barrel? Is there anything I must adjust using a 16 inch barrel or will it simply result in lower velocities?

 

[billybob44]

For me, how consistently they run through a powder measure is important. IMR propellants don't do as well as ball propellants in this area, particularly at lower measurement levels. That said, I use a lot of 3031 in 30-32 caliber stuff, but it's weighted on a charge master.

^^^
This is correct, especially if you are loading/shooting calibers at a hi volume=.223 Rem./5.56 Nato=My go to powders are H-335, BL-C(2), Winchester 748=all ball powders.
For one of the "Big Boys"=.300 Win. Mag.=One of the 4350 powders I will set my Uniflow measure short, and then trickle up to zero the scale for the proper charge weight...Bill.

 

[billybob44]

Since most load data uses 24" test barrel, how should I use that data for my 16"/1:7 barrel? Is there anything I must adjust using a 16 inch barrel or will it simply result in lower velocities?

Use the data the same, just be aware that the FPS will probably be 10 to 15% less at the muzzle and the target...Bill.

 

[craigkim]

I can't add anything that these guys haven't already. The one thing I will point out though is that, in my experience, it isn't all that hard to make ammo as accurate as factory loaded xm193.

Every little measure mentioned above will likely reduce your group size though. My most accurate load was new lapua brass with chamfered case mouths on my giraud, 77 TMK, VV powder hand measured ( I think it was N130?), WSR, and running my dillon just like would a single stage press (shell plate locked down) with a floating die head. I don't remember what my JPs twist rate is, but I think it is 1/8.

It can be very nerdy fun stuff.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I already know a few things: I'm not going for competitive accuracy (I shoot at 50 or 100 yards), and I prefer lighter loads/lighter bullets.

The risk is in overthinking it if that's the goal, and perhaps considering economy of loads over pure accuracy potential.

I respectfully submit that you're very likely to be happy by picking any of the top 5-10 loadings from the Lee manual that you like the looks of have have the components for, in a bullet weight matched to the twist of your rifle, working up a batch of 30, and trying it out to see if it suits you or not. Then worry about tinkering further, because if you're not looking for nths of a degree of a gnat's ass, it's pretty easy to work up "good enough for this" sorts of ammo.

 

[indyblue]

I already know a few things: I'm not going for competitive accuracy (I shoot at 50 or 100 yards), and I prefer lighter loads/lighter bullets.

The risk is in overthinking it if that's the goal, and perhaps considering economy of loads over pure accuracy potential.

I respectfully submit that you're very likely to be happy by picking any of the top 5-10 loadings from the Lee manual that you like the looks of have have the components for, in a bullet weight matched to the twist of your rifle, working up a batch of 30, and trying it out to see if it suits you or not. Then worry about tinkering further, because if you're not looking for nths of a degree of a gnat's ass, it's pretty easy to work up "good enough for this" sorts of ammo.

This is where I'm too.

I've made a batch of 40 rounds using Sierra 69gr hpbt over 8208XBR starting at just over minimum load: 22gr, 22.2gr, 22.4gr, 22.8gr using my once fired PMC bronze (.223) and X-TAC (5.56) brass. Only a few of the 200 cases I've processed so far needed any trimming and did FL sizing and no crimp.

Max load listed is 23.8gr. I've had an INGOer state I should start near max and work the other way thought, so not sure now.