9mm Carbines for home defense

[Ggreen]

Consider a .45 acp. Ballistically the same as .300 shooting subs, ammo is cheaper, and lots of defensive ammo available. Several different options for guns in .45acp.

I've got ar pistols in both 300 and 45. I have found that while 45acp can be had a little cheaper the defense ammo is almost a wash. It is much cheaper to build a 300blk, good 45 uppers are in th 750+ range, and magazines are astronomical. the 45 is more fun, but the 300 is more economical. It would take a lot of ammo to make up the difference in initial cost and accessory cost. There are some 45 pcc's out there not of the ar variety, but lots of them are finicky and most are relatively low capacity.

If I were running the 300 for home defense, even with a can, I would be running supers. The can will get rid of the majority of the damaging sound. Having both gives options, but I'll take 30 rounds in somewhat compact magazine over 21 in a footlong stick hanging out the bottom. The extra umph of a supersonic 300blk is nice too, I've laid a buck down at 50ish yards with one which builds confidence in the ability of the round for home defense.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

I'll echo the Beretta CX4. Mines a 9mm. It's accurate, reliable as hell, light, easy recoil, take down is slick and cleaning is a snap. You can find used ones around for $500, maybe even less. I love shooting it and it always draws the holster sniffers at the range. I think they may have more rounds through it then I have.

Magazines and ammo are cheap. I stuck a red dot on mine but the irons are fine, too.

The only complaint is the the rubber cheek weld pad to stock transition pulls out my beard hair.

 

[Hohn]

Save up for a CZ Scorpion Evo 3 carbine. Stone reliable and the folding stock makes it much better for HD.

That's currently MY plan.

I think the Scorpion is the best all around PCC on the market today.

But the Beretta also compelling in its own way.

 

[NKBJ]

I want to get a 9mm carbine for home defense. I currently am using a 12ga single-shot, but I want something my wife can use comfortably. (ok me too, it hurts lol) I noticed a hi-point carbine on the shelf at a sporting goods store awhile back, and I've been looking at them. The only bad thing I can find is that the screws need loctite applied so they don't come loose and that the firing pin becomes bent with "extended use". Has anyone had experience with that? I've not seen one actual review of someone having a bent firing pin, and I can't find any reviews that define what "extended use" actually means. How many rounds, how much abuse? I want something that's going to last a long time. Money is a serious issue, but if this is a good reason to avoid it I'll just save my money and get a ruger pc carbine. Thanks in advance.

Also, it's been about four years since I posted here. I forgot that was my tagline.

Get a used second or third hand pump shotgun for a cheap price and hack saw the barrel off to a legal length.
Thoroughly clean the mechanisms until there is no doubt about consistent operation.
Practice shooting it with rapid target acquisition until there is no doubt about your drilled in capability.
Make sure your better half can defend you too. Deadly women are great to have on your side.
If any part of that is illegal where you live then do something else. And relocate while you still can.

 

[Tombs]

I too am interested in a PCC for home and range fun. But am curious as to what 9mm load would be best for inside home use?

Anything you'd run in your pistol. I'd avoid 147gr subsonics. 124gr is probably your best bet, a bonded core bullet like a speer gold dot will hold together much better at the higher velocities.

Just expect less penetration from that long of a barrel as it will overdrive the expansion of the hollow point. I wouldn't get too caught up in debating ammo though, just a good tough hollow point that's bonded will do plenty well, take your pick of the lot as the extra energy you're getting will make up for the deficiencies in many of the off the shelf loadings.

I was shooting my CX4 today at the 100m line at a torso sized steel, I was a bit taken back by the energy delivered on target. It's quite a bit more umph than a handgun. A lot more energy being put down than I'd have assumed.

Your velocity difference will be roughly 150-200fps more than you'd see out of a 4.5" barreled handgun. Effect on target reminds me of a 357 magnum.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

https://www.impactguns.com/ruger-pc...r-glock-mags-17rd-mag-736676191000-19100.aspx

Impact guns has the new Ruger PCC for $500.

As far as ammo, most 9mm doesn't see significant velocity variations due to barrel length. You can load a slow powder and get some velocity increases, but many of the common loads on the market today will see a swing of less than 200fps from a 3.5" barrel to an 18" barrel. As an example, ballistics by the inch tested Hydrashocks and got 933 fps from a 3" Para LDA pistol and 1073 fps from an MP5 clone with 18" barrel. Other 124 gr and 147 gr offerings are similar. Any bonded 124gr or 147gr standard pressure that performs well out of a pistol should have roughly the same performance out of a carbine. The carbine doesn't offer the ballistic advantage an AR or shotgun does, just the sight radius, additional stability, etc. of a long gun.

 

[STEEL CORE]

I have a Colt 9mm, works nicely, but I like 5.56 Colts better.

 

[rvb]

there are so many variables in ammo and barrels. I don't think you can make assumptions about velocity. you need a chrono if you care how fast your ammo is going. Some will gain velocity, some will lose velocity. My 147gr loads which are 135 PF in my glock 34 are only 127 PF in my 12.5" AR (loss of about 55 fps).

-rvb

 

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

I have heard and read this statement about home defense, "low magazine capacity".
How many rounds do you need to defend you home?
How many people are needed to break into a home?
I am Damm sure after you put one or two rounds into an intruder. The other are going to bust ass getting out of there.
Your home is not the "OK Corral".
So if you have two 7 round mags for your 1911 or 9mm anything. I think that is more than enough.
The ease of handling a weapon with a small mag is easier than a 20 to 30 rounder.

I have a Hi Point and a J.R. I have two standard mags for each. I personally like my Hi Point. It is smaller and lighter to move around with. The recoil is light. Yes it would have been nicer with a double stack
I have had more failures with the J.R. than the Hi Point. Even after J.R. factory repairs.
The worse one for getting around my house is my "Kriss Vector 45". It is like carrying and using a sludge hammer to drive in a thumb tack.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have heard and read this statement about home defense, "low magazine capacity".
How many rounds do you need to defend you home?
How many people are needed to break into a home?
I am Damm sure after you put one or two rounds into an intruder. The other are going to bust ass getting out of there.
Your home is not the "OK Corral".
So if you have two 7 round mags for your 1911 or 9mm anything. I think that is more than enough.
The ease of handling a weapon with a small mag is easier than a 20 to 30 rounder.

Round counts tend to be very low for random home invasions and "burglaries" where they thought the home was empty but did an accidental home invasion when it wasn't. Targeted can stretch that out a bit, but that's also because many of them have one or more who stay outside and fire into the house (on foot or from a vehicle), more or less indiscriminately. Most folks aren't really in danger from that sort of thing. I've seen some pretty high round counts and guns shot empty in the "inside the house vs outside the house team gun battle" scenarios. Domestics can be nasty because the person cares more about killing their target than surviving the attempt, especially if they are chemically addled or mentally ill.

Two high round count gunfights I've seen were domestics were the targeted victim had family members and/or the attacker brought family members, a 3 v 2 and a 3 v 1 affair, both sides with cover or concealment. The attackers are much less prone to fleeing and to psychological stops.

 

[Spike Jones 5 2002]

Round counts tend to be very low for random home invasions and "burglaries" where they thought the home was empty but did an accidental home invasion when it wasn't. Targeted can stretch that out a bit, but that's also because many of them have one or more who stay outside and fire into the house (on foot or from a vehicle), more or less indiscriminately. Most folks aren't really in danger from that sort of thing. I've seen some pretty high round counts and guns shot empty in the "inside the house vs outside the house team gun battle" scenarios. Domestics can be nasty because the person cares more about killing their target than surviving the attempt, especially if they are chemically addled or mentally ill.

Two high round count gunfights I've seen were domestics were the targeted victim had family members and/or the attacker brought family members, a 3 v 2 and a 3 v 1 affair, both sides with cover or concealment. The attackers are much less prone to fleeing and to psychological stops.

You are talking about a home front "WAR" not your common place home invasion burglary.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Another consideration for using a HighPoint 995 for home defense is that it's easier to replace if the cops take it after you kill a bad guy.

 

[KJQ6945]

You are talking about a home front "WAR" not your common place home invasion burglary.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

Bring enough gun for the job, and damn sure, bring enough bullets.

 

[eric001]

OP, do what you (plural) are comfortable with. Period. Internet debates can go on forever, but if you're not both comfortable with the firearm and proficient in its use...it won't really help if/when you ever need it.

Here's my 2 cents though:

If HAVE > NEED, no problem.

If NEED > HAVE, problem.

(Just to be consistent!)

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Has anyone who survived a gun fight ever said they wished they had less ammo?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You are talking about a home front "WAR" not your common place home invasion burglary.

Take another look. I actually mentioned both, and the differences.

 

[Tombs]

https://www.impactguns.com/ruger-pc...r-glock-mags-17rd-mag-736676191000-19100.aspx

Impact guns has the new Ruger PCC for $500.

As far as ammo, most 9mm doesn't see significant velocity variations due to barrel length. You can load a slow powder and get some velocity increases, but many of the common loads on the market today will see a swing of less than 200fps from a 3.5" barrel to an 18" barrel. As an example, ballistics by the inch tested Hydrashocks and got 933 fps from a 3" Para LDA pistol and 1073 fps from an MP5 clone with 18" barrel. Other 124 gr and 147 gr offerings are similar. Any bonded 124gr or 147gr standard pressure that performs well out of a pistol should have roughly the same performance out of a carbine. The carbine doesn't offer the ballistic advantage an AR or shotgun does, just the sight radius, additional stability, etc. of a long gun.

Let me remind you, a 10-15% gain in velocity is not insignificant.

Remember, energy=mass X velocity squared.

This means you're taking a ~350ftlbs of energy cartridge and cranking it up to around ~430ftlbs of energy.
As far as advantages, if you don't plan on putting muffs on during a home invasion, a 9mm carbine won't cause you to live out the rest of your life deaf if you have to pull the trigger. Minor issue vs losing your life, but with modern bullets, effectiveness isn't as bad as one might think. With the right gun it's also significantly lighter and shorter than a legal length AR15, and much shorter than a legal length shotgun.

But by all means run a 308 rifle if you'd prefer, I'd just make sure you have electronic muffs hanging off it should you ever need it.

If capacity is a concern, any reputable manufacturer of PCCs offers it in a magazine format that will accept reliable factory made 30+ round magazines.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Let me remind you, a 10-15% gain in velocity is not insignificant.

It is as long as the bullet is still in the velocity window it was intended to work in. 147 gr HST passes the FBI testing battery when fired from a 16" barrel.

An AR is certainly louder, and I mentioned that as one of the places it's not as handy, but I've yet to meet someone deafened by one who fired it indoors. I wouldn't make it a habit, and there's always the potential I suppose, but I've talked to a lot of folks who've fired a few rounds inside and didn't end up with loss of hearing, tinnitus, etc.

As far as effectiveness, having seen the results in both (and occasionally in the same body), there's a difference. A soft point 55gr does a *lot* more damage than a pistol cartridge. Of course pistol cartridges can be effective, but it gives you less margin of error if your opponent insists on a physiological stop vs an AR or shotgun (preferably with plated buckshot).

 

[Hohn]

Let me remind you, a 10-15% gain in velocity is not insignificant.

It might be. Or it might not be. That's the point. Some rounds will gain a bunch of speed in a PCC. Is that a good thing? I've never seen evidence of improved bullet performance when it exceeds its design envelope.

Velocity might equal energy, but it sure as heck isn't "stopping power."

It's entirely possible the extra velocity--if it exists-- accomplishes next to nothing in terms of effectiveness.

I like the idea of a PCC not because the extra barrel turns it into a .357 or something, but because I would have far more quickness and accuracy as a shooter using a shoulder-fired weapon. The ballistic gains (if any) of a PCC are secondary considerations at best.

A small PCC SBR with a red dot, laser, light seems about right to me.

 

[Floivanus]

I like the idea of a PCC not because the extra barrel turns it into a .357 or something, but because I would have far more quickness and accuracy as a shooter using a shoulder-fired weapon. The ballistic gains (if any) of a PCC are secondary considerations at best.

A small PCC SBR with a red dot, laser, light seems about right to me.

better control, harder to get taken away from the user, easier to fire (wife, kids, etc if they need to use it) more options for lights, optics etc.

honestly, a handgun with a light and red dot isn’t practical IMHO, but my MP5, light and red dot are a lot easier to wield and don’t feel nearly as heavy as my baretta/light combo.

YMMV, but I do have both handy