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.300 Blackout-Sell me or Don't
- Thread starter oezer35
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When I was on the fence, I was thinking the same thing as Broom ^
The 5.56 is a great round, no doubt.
For me, the selling point of the 300blk was the efficiency in short barrels (AR pistol or SBR) either suppressed or not. Shorter OAL, more muzzle energy, less flash/concussion, plus parts compatibility (except barrel)
For a "truck gun" / bedside gun, it's hard to disparage the 300blk too much. It's not everyone's cup of tea. And I wouldn't recommend it if it's going to be your ONLY rifle. But it makes a great 3rd or 4th rifle
I run a "pistol" configuration with a thordsen cheekrest/stock. With a 10.5" bbl, and a Midwest industries pistol buffer tube (slightly longer than a standard carbine buffer tube),it puts my total at 26.5" without any muzzle device.
In my case, this length is perfect, because....
1 - I don't have to register it as a handgun (I'm in MICHIGAN, where *anything* under 26" is considered a handgun... it used to be anything under 30" but they've brought it more inline with federal standards)
2 - once you get a "handgun" (no buttstock) over 26" it becomes a ...mysterious and nebulous... "firearm" that is neither specified as a handgun or a rifle. This allows the owner to attach a vertical foregrip if desired. but if that same gun were 25.9" and you put a VFG, you're now violating NFA rules. So, over 26" is good for certain applications. I don't want to fool with NFA stuff right now because I may be moving again within a year, and who knows where we'll end up
it's also worth noting that most (not all, but most) 300blk barrels use a pistol length gas system, and some with a carbine length.. this is to maximize dwell time regardless of overall barrel length and make it more reliable for supersonic/subsonic and suppressed/unsuppressed
I've seen quite a few 14.5, 16, and even 18" barrels that have pistol length gas systems
Since the round is built more like a magnum pistol cartridge (powders, burn rates, etc), you don't get much more juice out of a longer barrel. That's why I opted for a 10.5 barrel (but I'd go as low as 8.5" or 9" and not be worried about reliability like I would in a 5.56 setup)
I've seen quite a few 14.5, 16, and even 18" barrels that have pistol length gas systems
Since the round is built more like a magnum pistol cartridge (powders, burn rates, etc), you don't get much more juice out of a longer barrel. That's why I opted for a 10.5 barrel (but I'd go as low as 8.5" or 9" and not be worried about reliability like I would in a 5.56 setup)
I will admit that I have not shot my 8.5" 300blk pistol yet, due to time, but boy do I think it's neat. I mean come on, the darn thing is just under 2ft long! How awesome!
I am reloading for it which is also fun. It gives me an ongoing, invovled project because I am converting my own brass from 5.56. It's awesome to sit back and watch something turn into something else.
I can't wait to shoot mine. Once I get a good load for it I plan on carrying it in my car. Just so happens to fit in a tennis racket case haha
I am reloading for it which is also fun. It gives me an ongoing, invovled project because I am converting my own brass from 5.56. It's awesome to sit back and watch something turn into something else.
I can't wait to shoot mine. Once I get a good load for it I plan on carrying it in my car. Just so happens to fit in a tennis racket case haha
I would say a Contender isn't really the platform for a 300BLK. Outside of SBR'd AR's, the utility really falls off. But in that space, there is nothing like it.
Outside of being fun to shoot, and suppressed...what, exactly, is this "utility" of which you speak?
They're COOL...but totally useless. In any practical application, there are many options that are superior and/or much more cost effective.
Outside of being fun to shoot, and suppressed...what, exactly, is this "utility" of which you speak?
They're COOL...but totally useless. In any practical application, there are many options that are superior and/or much more cost effective.
Well, if someone who wants to hunt with an AR, they're not going to be able to find one in 30-30, but they can get near that performance with a 300BLK. It's a better home defense round than a 5.56, particularly out of shorter barrels. Now one might prefer a 6.8 SPC for the hunting, but don't let the game warden catch you.
Also, the cost argument is bogus. You can buy cast >200 grain bullets for plinking that puts you on par with .223 cost. For hunting ammo, cost isn't that big a deal unless you're going out west to shoot prairie dogs. Ditto on home defense ammo.
Besides, feelings of self-superiority aside, utility is the usefulness to the user. Someone who wants a multi use semi-auto may find it fills the needs they have.
A machinist or a gunsmith might turn his nose up at a 26 oz. Estwing and point to his array of ball peens, soft face, dead blow, polished faced and engineers hammers. But if all a guy wants to do is drive and pull the occasional nail, that framing hammer is just what he needs. You might have a lever action 30-30, an XP-100 in 221 Fireball, AR in 6.5 Grendel, AR-10 in .308, Rem 700 in 257 Roberts, a Cooper in .17 Rem and a Barrett M-107. But if a guy needs one semi-auto to shoot intruders and deer.....
300BLK won't go on your safari or your prairie dog trip, but it has its uses. Platform has a lot to do with cartridge choice. I have no interest, personally, in a 300BLK bolt action. But then again, try getting 22 K Hornet to function in an AR.
If someone wants to hunt with a 30-caliber AR, the 308 is a better choice. Because it is rifled accordingly, the 30 Remington AR is also considerably better than the 300BLK...almost 600fps better. Particularly as fired from a pistol-length barrel, the 300BLK is nothing short of anemic, even with light-for-caliber bullets.
When I was talking about cost, I was referring to the rifle and stamps. For what it costs you to to build a dedicated 300BLK pistol or SBR, with suppressor and the paperwork, you could get into a lot of other rifles/handguns that are simply better at every single measurable thing you would ask of a firearm...other than be quiet.
I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of someone going out west to shoot prairie dogs with a 300BLK, when they almost certainly have a centerfire 22 option.
If a guy needs to shoot intruders and deer, (in Indiana) he could (now) buy a quality bolt action AND a decent 9mm handgun or 18" barreled shotgun, for less than building a 300BLK. He'd spend less and wind up with far superior tools for each job.
Why on earth would you want a 22 K Hornet to run in an AR when all you need to do is load up a mild charge of H335 in a 223 case to achieve the same velocity?
I've put this question to many folks, and none have been able to give a great answer:
Aside from the FUN of shooting heavy-for-caliber bullets, suppressed, name a single thing the 300BLK is really good at. I can't think of even one, can you?
OK, you really misunderstood me...
The point was that you're not going to put a K Hornet in an AR. I also made it quite clear that you would never want to take the 300BLK on a prairie dog hunt.
308 in an AR is a different platform. You're not putting that upper on your 223 lower.
Shotgun is heavy, and 9mm pistol is very weak by comparison to 300BLK for home defense. AR is a superior fighting tool than pistol or shotgun, whether you choose 5.56, 6.5, 6.8 or 300BLK.
People use 30-30's and .44 Mags to kill deer all the time. 300BLK supers are right in the same ballpark as a 30-30, and better than 44. But no one is crying in their beer about those being weak.
Perhaps you haven't heard a good answer due to not understanding what people are trying to tell you. I'm not trying to be snarky, but you either missed my answers to a lot of this before, or totally misinterpreted them. You and I have been down this reading comprehension road before. I can chalk it up to my lack of writing skills, I suppose.
The point was that you're not going to put a K Hornet in an AR. I also made it quite clear that you would never want to take the 300BLK on a prairie dog hunt.
308 in an AR is a different platform. You're not putting that upper on your 223 lower.
Shotgun is heavy, and 9mm pistol is very weak by comparison to 300BLK for home defense. AR is a superior fighting tool than pistol or shotgun, whether you choose 5.56, 6.5, 6.8 or 300BLK.
People use 30-30's and .44 Mags to kill deer all the time. 300BLK supers are right in the same ballpark as a 30-30, and better than 44. But no one is crying in their beer about those being weak.
Perhaps you haven't heard a good answer due to not understanding what people are trying to tell you. I'm not trying to be snarky, but you either missed my answers to a lot of this before, or totally misinterpreted them. You and I have been down this reading comprehension road before. I can chalk it up to my lack of writing skills, I suppose.
Is the AR in 300BLK a superior fighting tool with slow, heavy bullets or the supersonic loads? Superior to what?
A 12 gauge with 18" riot gun is heavier than an AR pistol? By how much? Is weight a huge concern when you're defending your home? Is over-penetration nothing to worry about?
People use 30-30's and 44 Magnums to kill deer, when they are hunting in places where shots will come at relatively short distances. Get outside of the Midwestern states, with their strange regulations, and the 30-30 is considered a very old, slow cartridge. The 300BLK is even slower, and that's using light-for-caliber bullets.
It's just not a good cartridge. You said it yourself: Not many folks want one in a bolt-action, because there are countless rounds that are simply better. It's really a "platform" thing, and the platform is fun to shoot, but otherwise has very poor utility.
The OP asked us to sell him on the 300 Blackout...I'm just expressing my opinion that it's a poor choice for most things and its only truly redeeming quality is shooting more quietly than you might otherwise. I'm OK with others seeing it differently.
A 12 gauge with 18" riot gun is heavier than an AR pistol? By how much? Is weight a huge concern when you're defending your home? Is over-penetration nothing to worry about?
People use 30-30's and 44 Magnums to kill deer, when they are hunting in places where shots will come at relatively short distances. Get outside of the Midwestern states, with their strange regulations, and the 30-30 is considered a very old, slow cartridge. The 300BLK is even slower, and that's using light-for-caliber bullets.
It's just not a good cartridge. You said it yourself: Not many folks want one in a bolt-action, because there are countless rounds that are simply better. It's really a "platform" thing, and the platform is fun to shoot, but otherwise has very poor utility.
The OP asked us to sell him on the 300 Blackout...I'm just expressing my opinion that it's a poor choice for most things and its only truly redeeming quality is shooting more quietly than you might otherwise. I'm OK with others seeing it differently.
And I respect that opinion. There are a lot of things you say I find valid.
My 12 ga with 18" barrel and 7 rounds is very heavy for my wife, but she is comfortable with the AR with 30 rounds. 00 Buck is certainly a huge risk for over penetration, and to a lesser extent, so are handgun rounds. Conversely, 5.56 and light for caliber 300BLK bullets have been shown time and again to be superior in this aspect. The AR is shorter, lighter, more maneuverable than a shotgun while still containing quadruple the capacity of very lethal ammunition. It is more controllable and an order of magnitude more lethal than a handgun. There is a reason everyone in the world who has to fight with a gun is doing it with a semi-auto carbine. Even beat cops are packing one in their patrol cars instead of or at least in addition to their 870's.
If I travel outside the Midwest to hunt it will change more gear than just the rifle I pack. But I'm not hunting deer elsewhere, and in our terrain, these cartridges are known to work great on whitetail.
I'm just saying there is more utility to the round and platform than you give it credit for. But you might never find any use for either, and that's ok. It's nice for us all to have the availability of equipment that meets our needs and preferences. And OP needs to hear your side of the argument.
AR-15 pistol, no mag, around 5.75 pounds. Mossberg 500 "Tactical", empty, around 6.75 pounds. Is that one pound really going to make a difference? Beat cops are carrying AR's because the bad guys are, too.
Who said anything about 00 buck shot? The same #6's I use for partridge or other game is a great option for convincing someone to get the heck out of my house...more of a "point" than "aim".
If you travel to hunt outside Indiana, you'll choose different equipment, including a bolt-action rifle and more powerful cartridge? You can do that on private land this fall, here in Indiana.
The 300BLK works on deer, but it's a stretch to say it works "great". It would be more accurate to say it's marginal on deer, because it truly is. It's barely enough, which many experienced hunters will tell you is not a wise choice.
The platform has great utility; the 300BLK cartridge, not so much. In a very real sense, it's a compromise in all respects, save suppressed shooting of "heavies", where it truly excels. If I owned one, it would be in a carbine length and the only interest I would have in it would be long-range accuracy with sub-sonic loads. That is how the concept (300 Whisper) started, and that is still the only thing the round is really GOOD at. Everything else you might do with it, including hunting of any kind, and home defense, is better accomplished with other tools. That's my opinion, but it's one substantiated by both mathematics and practicality.
Who said anything about 00 buck shot? The same #6's I use for partridge or other game is a great option for convincing someone to get the heck out of my house...more of a "point" than "aim".
If you travel to hunt outside Indiana, you'll choose different equipment, including a bolt-action rifle and more powerful cartridge? You can do that on private land this fall, here in Indiana.
The 300BLK works on deer, but it's a stretch to say it works "great". It would be more accurate to say it's marginal on deer, because it truly is. It's barely enough, which many experienced hunters will tell you is not a wise choice.
The platform has great utility; the 300BLK cartridge, not so much. In a very real sense, it's a compromise in all respects, save suppressed shooting of "heavies", where it truly excels. If I owned one, it would be in a carbine length and the only interest I would have in it would be long-range accuracy with sub-sonic loads. That is how the concept (300 Whisper) started, and that is still the only thing the round is really GOOD at. Everything else you might do with it, including hunting of any kind, and home defense, is better accomplished with other tools. That's my opinion, but it's one substantiated by both mathematics and practicality.
shibumiseeker
Grandmaster
When 300BLK started becoming popular I dived into it for a number of reasons and became a fan. I've shot it suppressed and it is truly outstanding in that arena, but it quickly became more than that for me. I shoot it both in AR rifle, pistol, and single shot Handi Rifle. It supplanted my varmint gun that sits next to the door and has killed fair number of things from raccoon to coyote to large dogs. I can load it up and I can load it down. The bullet selection is outstanding and it is very easy to cast for. While loadings on the extreme end either way may require a little tweaking for an AR, it's much less so than .223 especially in a shorter barrel and works with a pretty wide range of loads without modifying the gun. It's quieter even unsuppressed which to me is pretty important because I'm usually trying to get a varmint in the middle of the night at a dead run when there's no time to put on clothes let alone hearing protection. My house gun is loaded light for just that reason. I can load it plenty powerful for deer, especially choosing a loading that matches my rifle length gun to take better advantage of the longer barrel. In the pistol I have more energy of a round than the .223 in the same length barrel. Barrels and actions last longer as the pressures are lower so there is virtually no flame erosion of the barrel and bolt face pressure is less than the .223 the bolts and actions were designed for. My Handi Rifle is a very compact gun and a pleasure to shoot. I was crushed when Ruger teased us with offering their MVP in it but then never released them into the wild as having a bolt gun that used AR mags would be awesome. That I can make brass out of .223/5.56 brass that is no longer usable for that purpose really appeals to the utilitarian in me.
In short, I don't know why some people think it's an inadequate varmint or deer gun: it does those things just as fine as many other rounds people use of similar energy, but has far more flexibility both in platform and loads within the cartridge. The ONLY disadvantage to the round is to those who don't reload because ammo cost is greater than .223, but only by a little, and it generally costs less than .44mag or .30/30. I have no issue with those for whom it is not their cup o' tea, but it certainly is a respectable round and not just a niche as some portray.
In short, I don't know why some people think it's an inadequate varmint or deer gun: it does those things just as fine as many other rounds people use of similar energy, but has far more flexibility both in platform and loads within the cartridge. The ONLY disadvantage to the round is to those who don't reload because ammo cost is greater than .223, but only by a little, and it generally costs less than .44mag or .30/30. I have no issue with those for whom it is not their cup o' tea, but it certainly is a respectable round and not just a niche as some portray.
Load that shotty up with 7 rounds and see what the weight difference is. Plus, look at the weight distribution vs the SBR AR. I can tell you that my wife can not use the shotgun with proficiency, because of the weight hanging out on the end.
Youre talking about how insufficient a 300BLK is, and you're using #6 shot? Hopefully you don't have any meth heads breaking in, or someone truly determined.
Anyway, math is math, but interpretation of data is often quite different. I've seen enough math on this subject to satisfy me.
I just got my 300 BO upper finished this weekend. I used a VLTOR MUR upper with no FA, a Noveske 16" match barrel, and an FDE MI gen 3 Keymod rail in 15". That setup utilizes pistol length gas. This caliber fits a niche utility to me. I want to hunt deer with a nice light 223 AR, but we can't, so this is the closest thing that we can use legally. I used 458 last year, but I would like a little softer shooting rifle. The 458 thumps. I fired my 300 for function and it is awesome. Seems quieter than 223 and it also has a little different characteristic in recoil, maybe less sharp. I will use Barnes 110 TACTX factory loads for hunting and may load some other cheaper stuff just for fun. My shots are only to about 150 yards max and most are less than 50.
Thanks for all the feedback. I've decided to go with the 5.56 though. I have a good amount of ammo for it already and don't do any reloading so that kind of set it for me. I plan to do have a 10.5 upper built by Warrior Arms. Pretty excited about my first build. Thanks again.
Considering that the 5.56 was developed around a 20" barrel, I think you'd want to avoid SBRing any 5.56 when the .300BLK is tailor made for that SBR application.
A 8" 5.56 is going to be around 2400fps with a 55gr load, which is just over 700lb-ft. That's a little more than half what a full length rifle will do in 5.56.
A moderately warm 10mm load from a 6" lone wolf barrel will easily exceed 700lb-ft with a much heavier bullet.
You're way down into pistol energy ranges with the 8.5" 5.56, so I'd say there's no such thing as 'stopping power' to be had.
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