Church Security question

Cameramonkey · Feb 20, 2024

ditcherman said:
That’s awesome, very telling.
It won’t go down the way we imagine it will.

Yep. And I dont blame a single one of them. I suffered the same fate in one of Shay's FoF scenarios. I froze and got shot in the chest point blank. I just wasnt prepared for the ugly.

While I failed the scenario, I learned a LOT from the experience. Hopefully my team learned as much as I did.

ditcherman · Feb 20, 2024

flint stonez said:
Really great information. Thanks for everyone’s thoughts and opinions.
I agree there is MUCH more to church security than carrying whatever firearm one prefers. The team I’m part of is rather informal and really just at the beginning stages. We’ve got a long way to go and I was looking for opinions from others that take security seriously.
Thanks

I’m also on a somewhat informal team.
We definitely have some organization, but it’s also not ran by a drill sergeant.

One thing we do well imo is do a building walkaround first thing, in and out, as well as have someone stationed at the entry observing people coming in.

As others have stated, you will more likely deal with a fainting or weak person or a medical issue, and need the appropriate response that, as opposed to needing your gun.
Concerning your gun, I prefer a full size, CZ 75P01 Tactical, P320, or maybe a CZ Compact.
But the deal is train, and know what you CAN’T hit. Know what shot you shouldn’t take. Only you know that, it’s not anyone else’s judgement call. I regularly ring 8” gongs at 50 yards at the range but I know that can lead to a bad overconfidence problem in the real world.

ditcherman · Feb 20, 2024

Here’s a link to another discussion, there are many, search for church security but make sure to check the titles only box.
In this link, go to post 11 where there are more links to discussions…

Discussion of establishing a Church security/safety team

I was part of a committee to put together a church security/safety team. After some discussion with two lawyers we were advised that a formal security program opened up huge liability concerns. In light of Sunday's event in TX, I would like to re examine ideas and policies other churches have...

www.indianagunowners.com

BigRed · Feb 20, 2024

flint stonez said:
I’m part of the security team at my church. Sad but being able to stop the bad guys before they hurt the sheep is where society is. I’m curious if anyone else serves in this capacity and what is your weapon of choice?
Personally I am now carrying an Sig 365 along with a second magazine. I know there are other items to carry but I’m specifically asking about the firearm you carry.

If I have posted this in the wrong thread please forgive me. I’m new here and still learning to navigate the forum.

Thanks

What is your question.

Cameramonkey · Feb 20, 2024

BigRed said:
What is your question.

Seriously? I dunno. Maybe look for this symbol: ? That might lead you to what his question is.

BigRed · Feb 20, 2024

Cameramonkey said:
Seriously? I dunno. Maybe look for this symbol: ? That might lead you to what his question is.

My apologies.

BigRed · Feb 20, 2024

flint stonez said:
I’m part of the security team at my church. Sad but being able to stop the bad guys before they hurt the sheep is where society is. I’m curious if anyone else serves in this capacity and what is your weapon of choice?
Personally I am now carrying an Sig 365 along with a second magazine. I know there are other items to carry but I’m specifically asking about the firearm you carry.

If I have posted this in the wrong thread please forgive me. I’m new here and still learning to navigate the forum.

Thanks

The question I read was

"I’m curious if anyone else serves in this capacity and what is your weapon of choice? "

I suggest you use that which you use best to dispatch evil. Center mass most often works fine.

ECS686 · Feb 21, 2024

BigRed said:
The question I read was

"I’m curious if anyone else serves in this capacity and what is your weapon of choice? "

I suggest you use that which you use best to dispatch evil. Center mass most often works fine.

Respectfully that whole blanket statement of “center mass” as a term is antiquated and does not work. What LE and everyone that is a serious student has learned the last 4 decades only Upper thoracic hits in a large grapefruit size group (8” or NRA B8 repair center) and an orange size in the eye box around the whole head) are the only places that hit that consistently shut down the threat immediately.

So to ask about a firearm type there’s more to it what can they shoot that groups in demand!

Nazgul · Feb 21, 2024

ECS686 said:
Respectfully that whole blanket statement of “center mass” as a term is antiquated and does not work. What LE and everyone that is a serious student has learned the last 4 decades only Upper thoracic hits in a large grapefruit size group (8” or NRA B8 repair center) and an orange size in the eye box around the whole head) are the only places that hit that consistently shut down the threat immediately.

So to ask about a firearm type there’s more to it what can they shoot that groups in demand!

OK so enlighten us oh Grand master!!

Seriously, hitting in the center mass is a lot better than trying to hit a small moving target. Headshot is seriously hard at any distance under stress. An 8" circle? Maybe a little more possible but still asking a lot.

Practice for the thoracic shot whatever size. If a hit is scored then follow up with another shot in your desired zone when the target is slowed down.

Yes, use what you are proficient with and practice.

Don

Trapper Jim · Feb 21, 2024

ECS686 said:
Respectfully that whole blanket statement of “center mass” as a term is antiquated and does not work. What LE and everyone that is a serious student has learned the last 4 decades only Upper thoracic hits in a large grapefruit size group (8” or NRA B8 repair center) and an orange size in the eye box around the whole head) are the only places that hit that consistently shut down the threat immediately.

So to ask about a firearm type there’s more to it what can they shoot that groups in demand!

Well said. You can have all the gadgets advertised in GunDefender Magazine on your belt but ignoring the developed skill set is so common. Get out. Run the 5x5 classifier. Get an eval. Discover your base and take it up from there.

Or just keep fooling yourself. The choice is yours.

XDdreams · Feb 21, 2024

I'm sure it's been beaten to death by now, but carry what you have practiced and trained with. If you can hit your target accurately, brand doesn't matter.. only protecting innocence.

*edit: I think it goes without saying, but don't use junky equipment and expect great results. Dependable firearms and dependable ammunition are a must.

ECS686 · Feb 21, 2024

Nazgul said:
OK so enlighten us oh Grand master!!

Seriously, hitting in the center mass is a lot better than trying to hit a small moving target. Headshot is seriously hard at any distance under stress. An 8" circle? Maybe a little more possible but still asking a lot.

Practice for the thoracic shot whatever size. If a hit is scored then follow up with another shot in your desired zone when the target is slowed down.

Yes, use what you are proficient with and practice.

Don

First I said respectfully. 2nd it wasn’t to brow beat anyone and those that know me know my legitimate background. So with that you should attend a Rangemaster class.

And while yes head shots are harder to do than most think it’s the only other place.

Also as far as anything I relay I’ve seen “center mass” hit from a 230 JHP and when I arrived the deputy that shot him had him in handcuffs and the perp talked all the way to the hospital

85% of folks shot with handguns survive and if that 85% center mass hits was a large percentage of hits

So if my statement offended you because if your antiquated blanket statement not my fault. I only relayed facts that have been learned over the last 40 years of shootings!

1nderbeard · Feb 21, 2024

Anyone mention training yet?

Seriously though you should be more focused on training with what you have than upgrading to something you don't. Not just slow, focused, target shooting. You need dynamic shooting drills where you are physically fatigued. You need to train simulating the adrenaline dump that comes with being in an active shooter situation. Just making sure people you know are carrying that day is not enough.

flint stonez · Feb 21, 2024

Considering all the information y’all have provided I’m inclined to approach leadership with “new” ideas. I agree aomethkng has to be done and that things for churches will get worse so we need to be prepared.
Thank you very much

flint stonez · Feb 21, 2024

So far the biggest situation I’ve run into was an unruly first time visitor. In the middle of a sermon he stood up and started mildly yelling at the pastor. I approached him and in an attempt to deescalate the situation calmly asked him if we could discuss the issue outside the sanctuary. To which he responded with more yelling. I directed him to the rear of the sanctuary to which he became more agitated. At this point I became concerned that it would get physical so I prepared for what I thought was inevitable. I gently but firmly moved him in the direction away from the congregation. All the while he was still spouting his thoughts. It took some effort but I was able to calm him and remove him from the sanctuary. I at no time had to present my weapon but it did get slightly physical. Almost to the point where tackling was an option. To my dismay No other team member reacted. Not until I had him calmed down in the fellowship hall did someone come check. Very disappointed but sadly not surprised.
I thank God it didn’t get to the point of real physical violence or worse. Turns out this guys mom went to the church. She informed us later that he has mental issues and has been refusing to take his medication. According to her, he wasn’t a danger. I informed her that he almost got hurt at best and that it could have been much worst.
Good news is he started taking his medication and actually came to church for a time. We became “friends” and I sat with him weekly (for obvious reasons).
I learned that Not every situation needs to become physical but always be prepared if it does.

Cameramonkey · Feb 21, 2024

And as a well respected trainer says “always carry something between a harsh word and a lethal tool. “

gglass · Feb 21, 2024

I am one of three that provides armed security for our church, but there are a few others in the congregation that are known to carry as well.

My choice for carry is the same as my EDC, the S&W M&P40 Compact.

Nehemiah 4:13-14

13 So in the lowest parts of the space behind the wall, in open places, I stationed the people by their clans, with their swords, their spears, and their bows. 14 And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, “Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.”

KittySlayer · Feb 21, 2024

As others have noted it security is more than just the firearm.

For some long term planning be involved with any remodeling. Think about design layout with a thought to providing areas of cover for the flock. Are materials robust enough to stop a round(s)? Plenty of exits? How robust is the construction of the pews?

Cameramonkey · Feb 21, 2024

KittySlayer said:
As others have noted it security is more than just the firearm.

For some long term planning be involved with any remodeling. Think about design layout with a thought to providing areas of cover for the flock. Are materials robust enough to stop a round(s)? Plenty of exits? How robust is the construction of the pews?

We built an elevated booth back in 2021 when we started streaming to get it out of the way by moving it to the back wall. (It used to be a table 3/4 of the way back, blocking the view of some members) The camera position is at the end of the center aisle, and the rest of the stations are beside it away from the entrance. The entrance is 3/4 of the way back, on the side.

Since that corner of the booth faces the door, we half jokingly considered making the corner a solid sandwich of 2x6s instead of the 2x4s 16 on center that the rest of the booth is made of. That would create a 4x4' bullet resistant barrier. Since I'm on the team and also run multimedia, I'd have a perfect elevated, shooting position with cover. We decided against it.

With everything going on, maybe we should have? :dunno:

Airtevron1 · Feb 21, 2024

NHT3 said:
I'm also security at my church but I don't see why you are interested in what anyone else carries? I always carry the same pistol I train with regularly as carry every day. I imagine anyone else on a security team does the same. Puzzling question but if I'm missing something please enlighten me.

Whats the point of INGO if he cant ask a question?

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