Trump 2024 ???

[Ingomike]

Indeed. I just thought it would be interesting and relevant to the discussion here to find the actual origin of the whole "sent by God" thing" just so anyone that didn't know about it could check it out if they want to and they can decide for themselves.

Why not both?

 

[jamil]

Firstly why do you keep ascribing to me positions I've not taken? You've accuse bug of doing such, and now here you are.

Let's knock off the straw man talk. You're sure holding your own in that department. Did you even read my post?

If you're only saying there's ample evidence to indicate that spies were involved, I'm fine with that. I'm not disputing that. It's reasonable to speculate such.

Im not a Trumper. I was hopeful the Powells and Lindells, etc. would provide some evidence of fraud, because nothing about that election made sense, but I didn't follow all the details that closely. I sort of wrote them off after watching all the smoke but never seeing any fire.

So now we're getting somewhere. You haven't explained that before.

Your experience was very much the same as mine. Powell and Lindell made some pretty bold accusations, and then did not provide the evidence they promised. When Powell came out and claimed she had evidence, and would soon release the Kraken, I thought, okay. She must actually have something. But like you say, after they fizzled, I pretty much wrote them off.

My position isn't tied to Powell, or Lindell, or kraken, or any other albatross you are attempting to hang about my neck, regardless of what you have assumed. I've told you this repeatedly, but I guess it's easier to erect strawmen.

No. you did not tell me the part about writing powell off repeatedly. That probably would have convinced me you weren't just trying to defend the tribe.

Yes I believe the IC manipulated the election. I laid out for you my reasons for believing so. It's circumstantial evidence, and while it's not the kraken or whatever you want to see, it's compelling enough to the open minded to preclude wholesale ignoring it.

No, it's not whatever I wanted to see. It seemed you had two arguments going on to me. One, that you find the evidence compelling that the IC manipulated the election, and 2) it seemed like you were saying you believe they altered actual votes. That second one is pretty much the same claim Powell et al were making, so surely you can see that it would make me think you're defending that, despite your insistence that you weren't.

When I laid it out in the preceding post you addressed each point individually without considering their totality.

That's not an adequate deflection of those points. Either address them or not. But don't make an excuse for not addressing them.

And some of your counterpoints were flawed.

You claim Biden, even though no one wanted him, go so many more votes because people didn't like Trump. Elections 101, people don't vote because they dislike the other guy, they vote because they like their guy.

Why are you making a claim you can't support? Show me in the Elections 101 manual that people don't vote against candidates, that they only vote for them.

If you couldn't see the rabid Trump derangement in front of your face, I don't know what to tell you. Republicans voted for Biden, for **** sake. Because they couldn't stand the Republican candidate. CoC Republicans hate the guy. Rank and file, people hate the guy. The press has convinced them Trump is evil. 2020 was a referendum on Trump, pure and simple. That was the Democrats main strategy. Pundits talked about throughout the campaign. Make it about Trump and then their army of blue haired activists can convince even apathetic people to vote against literally Hitler.

You didn't have a point about the irregularities other than, "Meh?"

When did I say "meh?" Is that a straw man?

You discounted the Agency history, capability, and their persistent use of inflamatory language like "grave threat to the country" to describe Trump.

Another straw man? I said that is not proof that they did what you're claiming they did. It's at best proof that they could have. Not that they did.

It's the totality of these things that leads me to to conclude that the IC wasn't going to rely on election shenanigans carried out by an army of Democrat stooge election workers to ensure Trump didn't get to sit in the big boy chair again. It has nothing to do with Powell, Lindell, kraken, or whatever strawman you want to argue about.

Again, it's not a straw man argument I'm making. The original point I made that brought you into this, I said, why believe it had to be "the kracken", without evidence, when known information could explain it. You argued that the IC manipulation, which is actually what Powell's Kracken was supposed to prove, is a good enough explanation.

Okay, so if you believe that IC manipulation is an equally possible explanation for the results, I think it's reasonable to challenge you for the same kind of proof that we already know, about rule changes/harvesting.

Hopefully, you're not also making a claim that Tumpers like to make, that Biden couldn't possibly have gotten more votes than Trump. If you think the IC altered 7 million votes, I think that's astonishing, and would require astonishing evidence to believe.

 

[jamil]

It's excusable in this instance. There is both a DeSantis '24 and a Trump '24 thread running simultaneously. I've gotten confused on which one I'm actually posting in since both discuss D'tis and Trump relative to one another almost exclusively.

There's also a thread for election 2024. I wouldn't be opposed if mods combined all into that one. I mean we don't just discuss Trump in this one. And we don't just discuss DeSantis in the DeSantis thread.

 

[KG1]

There's also a thread for election 2024. I wouldn't be opposed if mods combined all into that one. I mean we don't just discuss Trump in this one. And we don't just discuss DeSantis in the DeSantis thread.

Probably not a bad idea to consolidate since intermingling is always going to happen no matter.

That way no one can be accused of trolling in either thread.

 

[KG1]

I wanted to comment a bit about that DeSantis "God sent me" 2020 campaign ad that I posted. I was originally under the impression from the previous discussion that DeSantis had said that about himself.

I was curious to try to find out where that originated from so I did a little googling and came up with the actual 2020 gubernational campaign ad. In all fairness It appears that he may not have said it and it was just a campaign ad. Unless he did actually say it in another setting that I am unaware of. Could be but I'm not aware of it.

Now in saying that I'm sure he approved of the messaging and it's fair to say that even though he might not have said it himself the messaging was still the same so IDK I guess it's up to each individual to determine how much weight they want to assign to it in the negative column or not.

 

[DragonGunner]

Here is the actual 2020 DeSantis campaign ad for anyone that is curious about it. It was a takeoff from a late great Paul Harvey commentary titled 'So God made a farmer." The campaign ad was titled "So God made a fighter" It was done in a Paul Harvey-esque style commentary.

The narrator even sounds like Harvey. Check it out if you want to see what the actual deal was.

Maybe this stuff should be posted in the DeSantis thread. I only posted here because the conversation was started here. Cross posting and intermingling of threads is another INGO trait. .

Anyways there it is, and it was relevant to the ongoing discussion here, so I posted here.

I could have done without that….lol. Didn’t he shut down FL during Covid? He came around but a real fighter would kept it open. Wasn’t there other governors that never shut down, maybe they are the real fighters. I think he has been good for FL but I still see a politician. Easy being a governor, and succeed, just stop doing liberal crap. If only other states would realize that. That should be a campaign slogan…lol.

 

[KLB]

I could have done without that….lol. Didn’t he shut down FL during Covid? He came around but a real fighter would kept it open. Wasn’t there other governors that never shut down, maybe they are the real fighters. I think he has been good for FL but I still see a politician. Easy being a governor, and succeed, just stop doing liberal crap. If only other states would realize that. That should be a campaign slogan…lol.

The only state I am aware of that was never shutdown at all was SD.

 

[KG1]

After researching some more, I did come across something that suggests he was pandering to the Christian evangelical right in a speech he gave at a "Faith and freedom " coalition conference in 2021 where he said this ;

"“It ain’t going to be easy,” he said. “You got to be strong. You got to put on the full armor of God. You got to take a stand — take a stand against the left’s schemes. You got to stand your ground. You got to be firm. You will face flaming arrows, but take up the shield of faith and fight on."

Apparently, it was in reference to a New Testament passage from Ephesians 6,

"Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes"

So yeah it looks like he was pandering like a mo-fo. to rally the Christian evangelical right.

Ron DeSantis Says He Will Put on 'Full Armor of God' to Fight Leftism: 'Our Rights Come from God'

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) said over the weekend he is prepared to put on the “full armor of God” to fight against leftism.

www2.cbn.com

 

[jamil]

I could have done without that….lol. Didn’t he shut down FL during Covid? He came around but a real fighter would kept it open. Wasn’t there other governors that never shut down, maybe they are the real fighters. I think he has been good for FL but I still see a politician. Easy being a governor, and succeed, just stop doing liberal crap. If only other states would realize that. That should be a campaign slogan…lol.

Exactly. A real fighter would have ended the the lockdowns. Just like Trump di…oh wait.

There were other governors who didn’t lock things down. I’d be interested in hearing why DeSantis changed his mind. But, the fact is that he did, and Florida’s lead sort of made it seem okay for other people to question it.

 

[jamil]

After researching some more, I did come across something that suggests he was pandering to the Christian evangelical right in a speech he gave at a "Faith and freedom " coalition conference in 2021 where he said this ;

"“It ain’t going to be easy,” he said. “You got to be strong. You got to put on the full armor of God. You got to take a stand — take a stand against the left’s schemes. You got to stand your ground. You got to be firm. You will face flaming arrows, but take up the shield of faith and fight on."

Apparently, it was in reference to a New Testament passage from Ephesians 6,

"Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes"

So yeah it looks like he was pandering like a mo-fo. to rally the Christian evangelical right.

Ron DeSantis Says He Will Put on 'Full Armor of God' to Fight Leftism: 'Our Rights Come from God'

Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) said over the weekend he is prepared to put on the “full armor of God” to fight against leftism.

www2.cbn.com

It’s what politicians do. I’d rather pick one that doesn’t. If only one of those were available.

 

[KG1]

Exactly. A real fighter would have ended the the lockdowns. Just like Trump di…oh wait.

There were other governors who didn’t lock things down. I’d be interested in hearing why DeSantis changed his mind. But, the fact is that he did, and Florida’s lead sort of made it seem okay for other people to question it.

Well if I recall correctly Trump said something like he would leave it up to the governors of each state.

 

[Ingomike]

If you couldn't see the rabid Trump derangement in front of your face, I don't know what to tell you. Republicans voted for Biden, for **** sake. Because they couldn't stand the Republican candidate.

You too are making claims you cannot support...

 

[Ingomike]

Let's knock off the straw man talk. You're sure holding your own in that department. Did you even read my post?

If you're only saying there's ample evidence to indicate that spies were involved, I'm fine with that. I'm not disputing that. It's reasonable to speculate such.


So now we're getting somewhere. You haven't explained that before.

Your experience was very much the same as mine. Powell and Lindell made some pretty bold accusations, and then did not provide the evidence they promised. When Powell came out and claimed she had evidence, and would soon release the Kraken, I thought, okay. She must actually have something. But like you say, after they fizzled, I pretty much wrote them off.


No. you did not tell me the part about writing powell off repeatedly. That probably would have convinced me you weren't just trying to defend the tribe.


No, it's not whatever I wanted to see. It seemed you had two arguments going on to me. One, that you find the evidence compelling that the IC manipulated the election, and 2) it seemed like you were saying you believe they altered actual votes. That second one is pretty much the same claim Powell et al were making, so surely you can see that it would make me think you're defending that, despite your insistence that you weren't.


That's not an adequate deflection of those points. Either address them or not. But don't make an excuse for not addressing them.


Why are you making a claim you can't support? Show me in the Elections 101 manual that people don't vote against candidates, that they only vote for them.

If you couldn't see the rabid Trump derangement in front of your face, I don't know what to tell you. Republicans voted for Biden, for **** sake. Because they couldn't stand the Republican candidate. CoC Republicans hate the guy. Rank and file, people hate the guy. The press has convinced them Trump is evil. 2020 was a referendum on Trump, pure and simple. That was the Democrats main strategy. Pundits talked about throughout the campaign. Make it about Trump and then their army of blue haired activists can convince even apathetic people to vote against literally Hitler.


When did I say "meh?" Is that a straw man?


Another straw man? I said that is not proof that they did what you're claiming they did. It's at best proof that they could have. Not that they did.


Again, it's not a straw man argument I'm making. The original point I made that brought you into this, I said why believe it had to be "the kracken", without evidence, when known information could explain it. You argued that the IC manipulation, which is actually what Powell's Kracken was supposed to prove, is a good enough explanation.

Okay, so if you believe that IC manipulation is an equally possible explanation for the results, I think it's reasonable to challenge you for the same kind of proof that we already know, about rule changes/harvesting.

Hopefully, you're not also making a claim that Tumpers like to make, that Biden couldn't possibly have gotten more votes than Trump. If you think the IC altered 7 million votes, I think that's astonishing, and would require astonishing evidence to believe.

At the end of the day probable cause existed for everything @buckwacker believes happened no matter what you conjure up in your mind…

 

[jamil]

Well if I recall correctly Trump said something like he would leave it up to the governors of each state.

While his advisor, Fauci went on lying to everyone, dictating the science to all the leaders. And most of the leaders, including DeSantis, would tend to follow the protocols from federal agencies. The ones who thought there was more political upside than downside to disregarding federal advisements didn’t follow them.

Trump didn’t fight that. It’s his administration giving the advisement for states to shut down. Of course it would be politically risky for Trump to have stopped that. But that’s what fighters do.

 

[Ingomike]

While his advisor, Fauci went on lying to everyone, dictating the science to all the leaders. And most of the leaders, including DeSantis, would tend to follow the protocols from federal agencies. The ones who thought there was more political upside than downside to disregarding federal advisements didn’t follow them.

Trump didn’t fight that. It’s his administration giving the advisement for states to shut down. Of course it would be politically risky for Trump to have stopped that. But that’s what fighters do.

You are the hindsight champ. Now it is disappointing that Trump has not disavowed his vaccines support, with all the deep state threw at Trump, he was sitting in the Oval Office pondering if the CDC and NIH were going to politicize a pandemic…

 

[jamil]

You are the hindsight champ. Now it is disappointing that Trump has not disavowed his vaccines support, with all the deep state threw at Trump, he was sitting in the Oval Office pondering if the CDC and NIH were going to politicize a pandemic…

I get that the pandemic was new. He was inexperienced in this realm. I defiantly grant him a pass on how he handled his administration in the early days. He didn’t know any better. No one did really.

Do you grant DeSantis the same pass? Especially when the agencies in charge of such things are telling governors what they should do. The agencies Trump was in charge of.

Trump still claims he saved millions of lives. Does he truly believe what you believe about the pandemic? Or is there a glimpse of a man who is even capable of recognizing mistakes he made, and is willing to change midstream and say, this is wrong.

 

[KG1]

While his advisor, Fauci went on lying to everyone, dictating the science to all the leaders. And most of the leaders, including DeSantis, would tend to follow the protocols from federal agencies. The ones who thought there was more political upside than downside to disregarding federal advisements didn’t follow them.

Trump didn’t fight that. It’s his administration giving the advisement for states to shut down. Of course it would be politically risky for Trump to have stopped that. But that’s what fighters do.

While that may be true in the end I believe that Trump said he would leave it up to the governors and I don't recall lockdowns being a federal mandate under Trump's administration.

 

[KG1]

Trump resists national shutdown, leaving it up to states

WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump is resisting calls to issue a national stay-at-home order to stem the spread of the new coronavirus despite his administration's projections that tens of thousands of Americans are likely to be killed by the disease.

apnews.com

Trump said Wednesday he wants to give governors’ “flexibility” on whether a stay-at-home policy is the best option for their constituents but acknowledged that he’s looking at limiting air and rail travel between hot spots within the United States.

 

[buckwacker]

Let's knock off the straw man talk. You're sure holding your own in that department. Did you even read my post?

I did read your post and was responding specifically to your tying me to storylines or people you believe are demonstrably untrustworthy without me having brought them up. You were assuming facts not in evidence counselor, hence my strawman comments. Maybe it was an honest mistake, maybe it wasn't, but if the entirety of your argument centers on "you must have evidence", you should attempt to do better than assuming.

If you're only saying there's ample evidence to indicate that spies were involved, I'm fine with that. I'm not disputing that. It's reasonable to speculate such.


So now we're getting somewhere. You haven't explained that before.

Your experience was very much the same as mine. Powell and Lindell made some pretty bold accusations, and then did not provide the evidence they promised. When Powell came out and claimed she had evidence, and would soon release the Kraken, I thought, okay. She must actually have something. But like you say, after they fizzled, I pretty much wrote them off.


No. you did not tell me the part about writing powell off repeatedly. That probably would have convinced me you weren't just trying to defend the tribe.

What I'm saying is there's evidence, which I've laid out, without bringing up Powell or Lindell or kraken (specifically Powell's kraken), to indicate its more likely than not that the IC interfered\manipulated\ changed the outcome of the election with bringing in what you consider discredited storylines.

And again I don't need to say I've written Powell off, because I didn't bring her or the kraken up. You incorrectly made the assumption that was the foundation of my argument. After you brought them into the discussion, I said several times that they have nothing to do with my calculus. For the record, the kraken was the proof that IC flipped votes, not the idea that they did, an important distinction for the purpose of this discussion.

No, it's not whatever I wanted to see. It seemed you had two arguments going on to me. One, that you find the evidence compelling that the IC manipulated the election, and 2) it seemed like you were saying you believe they altered actual votes. That second one is pretty much the same claim Powell et al were making, so surely you can see that it would make me think you're defending that, despite your insistence that you weren't.

I was making the argument that I do believe the IC manipulated vote tallies along with a host of other methods of interference, but I don't the the kraken squirrelled away in my basement to share with you. I have the circumstantial evidence (taken in totality) to say there's a high likelyhood this occurred. For what it's worth, I have believed this has been ongoing since before the 2016 election, before Powells kraken and Lindells absolute proof.

That's not an adequate deflection of those points. Either address them or not. But don't make an excuse for not addressing them.

Not following.

Why are you making a claim you can't support? Show me in the Elections 101 manual that people don't vote against candidates, that they only vote for them.

If you couldn't see the rabid Trump derangement in front of your face, I don't know what to tell you. Republicans voted for Biden, for **** sake. Because they couldn't stand the Republican candidate. CoC Republicans hate the guy. Rank and file, people hate the guy. The press has convinced them Trump is evil. 2020 was a referendum on Trump, pure and simple. That was the Democrats main strategy. Pundits talked about throughout the campaign. Make it about Trump and then their army of blue haired activists can convince even apathetic people to vote against literally Hitler.

It's well established that dislike of the other guy is not a factor in and of itself sufficient to motivate one side of the electorate to vote against the guy they dislike, they need to be motivated to vote FOR their guy. It's a turnout thing. Biden did not inspire, no one was excited about his candidacy, he didn't motivate people to vote. Hating the other guy is universal in elections, but it's not what turns them. If that were untrue, Obama would have lost in 2012.

When did I say "meh?" Is that a straw man?

It's a three letter expression summarizing how I read your argument against considering irregularities that seemed indicitative of manipulated vote tallies.

Another straw man? I said that is not proof that they did what you're claiming they did. It's at best proof that they could have. Not that they did.


Again, it's not a straw man argument I'm making. The original point I made that brought you into this, I said why believe it had to be "the kracken", without evidence, when known information could explain it. You argued that the IC manipulation, which is actually what Powell's Kracken was supposed to prove, is a good enough explanation.

Can you provide some sort of hard proof that the ballot harvesting effected the outcome of the election? How much of it occurred? Do you have a tally of the number of votes harvested or are you simply assuming it was enough to effect the outcome? How many assumptions in absence of proof in your hand do you have to make to draw that conclusion? Also again I'm pretty sure the kraken was the proof, not the idea.

Okay, so if you believe that IC manipulation is an equally possible explanation for the results, I think it's reasonable to challenge you for the same kind of proof that we already know, about rule changes/harvesting.

Hopefully, you're not also making a claim that Tumpers like to make, that Biden couldn't possibly have gotten more votes than Trump. If you think the IC altered 7 million votes, I think that's astonishing, and would require astonishing evidence to believe.

I don't know anything other than its highly likely elements of the IC used every tool at their disposal to ensure Trump didn't win that election, including manipulating vote tallies. It is the one thing that most reasonably checks all the boxes. I dont know Biden couldn't have won without all the shenanigans, but I think it's highly improbable.

 

[drillsgt]

Exactly. A real fighter would have ended the the lockdowns. Just like Trump di…oh wait.

There were other governors who didn’t lock things down. I’d be interested in hearing why DeSantis changed his mind. But, the fact is that he did, and Florida’s lead sort of made it seem okay for other people to question it.

In the beginning I wouldn't hold it against a lot of the Governors that shut things down, there were a lot of unknowns, what I would look at more was how long they stayed shut down after more information became available i.e. Michigan.