Michigan High School Shooting, Teen Kills 3, Wounds 8

[churchmouse]

Still waiting to hear what "I am to own up to".

A sincere Merry Christmas to you and yours, Sir.

I need to go back and do some reading.
I must have missed that one.
Not the season well wishes.

 

[churchmouse]

First, Mr. Red, I am not attacking you or your post. Your post just makes my point extremely easy to make, so I'm using it for that reason alone.

You said, "I have taught them individual responsivilty. I have taught them choices have consequences. I have taught them to defend themselves against others who will use a tragedy to erode their natural rights." By the way, this is the best any parent can do, so I applaud you for it.

My concern is that I don't give a plug nickel what parents have taught their kids, I care about what the kids have learned!

I would guess that in over 90% of the cases what is taught is what is learned, but not 100%. I believe that parents need to be very open to the idea that no matter what they are trying to teach their kids, some of their kids just aren't learning it. And there is where parents need to be very observant about how much of what is being taught is truly being absorbed.

In this case it appears, based upon current media reporting (that may or may not be entirely accurate), that these particular parents did not fully appreciate how much their own son may be mentally disturbed. As such they did not take appropriate action in dealing with whatever demons this kid has.

However, kids are damned good liars! They know the best way to spin something for their parents. Also, some kids are sociopaths, and are very deft at manipulating others by pretending to be what adults expect them to be.

Regards and Merry Christmas,

Doug

Our oldest son is one of those you described. A master at deception and spin. He led us on a not so merry chase for a number of years. In our hearts I believe we always knew he was a lier and a little but we pushed on in hopes of getting his feet back on what we saw as the right path.
We never feared he would go over center and shoot up anyplace as his issues were drug and alcohol related. At 38 he is still struggling with his demons.
Denial is a powerful thing. It can and does blind a parent as to the reality we are dealing with. It took us some time to figure it out and once our vision cleared we stepped away. Way more to this but yes you can teach and guide them. In the end they will choose the path they walk.

 

[bwframe]

A lot of this problem starts with "parents" who wouldn't begin to know how to parent, because they themselves had none.

Be it kids being "raised" by single parents or running from mom to dad, the discipline of a household and supporting educational facility is something of the past.

We now have generations of people with no grasp of accountability.

 

[BigRed]

We now have generations of people with no grasp of accountability.

State has yet another solution.

 

[tmschuller]

I bought my son a Ruger Mark IV 22/45 with a MRDS and 1k rounds for his 13th birthday. He proved to me that he was responsible enough for the privilege. He's a great shot and loves the shooting disciplines. He gets fantastic grades, does his chores, communicates well with us, and otherwise sets himself as an exemplary child. Why not?

Now, why did THESE parents buy THIS kid a handgun as a gift? God only knows.

I’m sure it’s been said but those idiots are part of the problem. We hear that crap here in some of our own members comments
I can’t imagine what that families dynamics were. I’ve only read some of the news about this kid/mom/dad and wow.
It’s sad and the media has and will play up and around with the facts or how it’s reported and it was the guns fault NOT some irresponsible parents buying there kid that obviously responsible

 

[KLB]

Justice??

That argument could be used for the shooter as well. “This poor kid has to live the rest of his life with guilt. Hasn’t he suffered enough?” Nope. Doesn’t hold up.

If a parent left their 2 year old at home to go out drinking with friends, and the kid had an accident and died, wouldn’t you expect charges of negligence to be filed? Or is losing a child punishment enough?

You and I have very different definitions of justice.

The shooter actually committed a crime. He killed people. That is where justice comes into play.

That example is far different than what we were discussing as well. That is flat out child endangerment, which would also be a crime.

Are you saying you are in favor of having laws requiring guns be locked up if there is a child in the home?

 

[Hoosierdood]

Are you saying you are in favor of having laws requiring guns be locked up if there is a child in the home?

Of course not. I am completely against that. But if it can be proven that the parents were negligent (knew that the kid had issues, mental instability, homicidal thoughts, and provided him with a gun anyway) I think there is a case for charges to be filed. I think it is going to be difficult to prove though.

I have 4 kids and never locked my guns up when they were little. I had a consistent policy with all my kids… from the time they were able to walk I told them they never touch guns unless I am present, but any time they wanted to see my guns all they had to do is ask. I would show them how to make it safe, and would reinforce the 4 rules as they were looking at it. By the age of 8 or so, the requests stopped. I took them shooting and even took them to a youth training class. If I were EVER to get any indication that one of my kids had mental health issues, the guns would be 100% inaccessible.

ETA- there is a fine line between being a bad parent and outright negligence. The initial facts of this case seem to indicate negligence.

 

[KLB]

Of course not. I am completely against that. But if it can be proven that the parents were negligent (knew that the kid had issues, mental instability, homicidal thoughts, and provided him with a gun anyway) I think there is a case for charges to be filed. I think it is going to be difficult to prove though.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I am just against the rush to judgement. We don't know what really happened. All we know is what a liberal prosecutor and a liberal media are spinning the story as.

 

[Farmerjon]

OK. A point I need to stress in all of this.

You applied yourself to being a parent. This skill is going away at an alarming rate.
Your success is a direct result of your efforts. I applaud you sir.

It is all too obvious the parents of the young lost soul were miserable failures in this......Parenting.

Thats all I have.

In this day and age, it takes more to get a dog or cat from the pound than it does to take a newborn child home.

 

[BugI02]

That's not negligence. That's just bad parenting. There's a difference.

Negative, Ghostrider. You were arguing that parents should have responsibility for their minor children's crimes. Are you saying you only believe that about the 'privileged' ones?

Is it not negligent to enable your children to become little criminals? Would you absolve the parents if the kid had killed one or both of them to get the gun, Lanza-style?

 

[BugI02]

Should the parents be responsible for what their kids are out doing?

According to the way Hoosierdood framed his argument, yes if they are minors

I disagree. Criminals are the only ones responsible for their crime. I don't give a dry **** about how difficult their little lives were/are, if they have been taught right and wrong there is a time when then either heed or ignore that knowledge and then it is all on them

 

[Hoosierdood]

Negative, Ghostrider. You were arguing that parents should have responsibility for their minor children's crimes. Are you saying you only believe that about the 'privileged' ones?

Is it not negligent to enable your children to become little criminals? Would you absolve the parents if the kid had killed one or both of them to get the gun, Lanza-style?

No, you misunderstand me. I’m not arguing that all parents should have responsibility for their minor child’s crimes. Pay attention here. I’m arguing that THESE parents should be held responsible if it is determined that their negligence contributed to his crime.

 

[BugI02]

There is a problem in this nation that is gaining ground. You can’t see it?

Yes, it is trying to absolve criminals somehow of their crimes because they have had a 'difficult life'. Millions of other people have a 'difficult life' but don't shoot up a school or drive their vehicle through a Christmas parade

It has now morphed into absolution for simply being a POC

There is no collective guilt. I would advise not trying to blame your parents or racism on judgement day

 

[Cameramonkey]

Negative, Ghostrider. You were arguing that parents should have responsibility for their minor children's crimes. Are you saying you only believe that about the 'privileged' ones?

Is it not negligent to enable your children to become little criminals? Would you absolve the parents if the kid had killed one or both of them to get the gun, Lanza-style?

I think the argument for these narrow cases (getting hands on a weapon) is whether reasonable care was taken to prevent access.

Laying in an unlocked dresser drawer? Absolutely. Accessory to the crime.
Kid breaking in to a locked device to access the gun they normally dont have access to? No. (but if the kid was in on the location of the hidden key (e.g. locked up for thieves only, not family), yes)

 

[Hoosierdood]

Yes, it is trying to absolve criminals somehow of their crimes because they have had a 'difficult life'. Millions of other people have a 'difficult life' but don't shoot up a school or drive their vehicle through a Christmas parade

It has now morphed into absolution for simply being a POC

There is no collective guilt. I would advise not trying to blame your parents or racism on judgement day

I don’t recall anyone attempting to absolve the shooter of his crime due to a difficult life. Maybe I missed something?

 

[BugI02]

No, you misunderstand me. I’m not arguing that all parents should have responsibility for their minor child’s crimes. Pay attention here. I’m arguing that THESE parents should be held responsible if it is determined that their negligence contributed to his crime.

And I will ask again, why only THESE parents? Why are parents who don't care who their minor children are running with, where they are and what they might be doing any less negligent? If that kid gets a gun and kills someone, why are they somehow less responsible given your framework? Should they not have known what their child might do? Would it be different, more forgivable somehow, if rather than making disturbing drawings they were making disturbing rap videos

There is no collective guilt, either here or in the next life. We are all only responsible for our own choices and actions

 

[BugI02]

I think the argument for these narrow cases (getting hands on a weapon) is whether reasonable care was taken to prevent access.

Laying in an unlocked dresser drawer? Absolutely. Accessory to the crime.
Kid breaking in to a locked device to access the gun they normally dont have access to? No. (but if the kid was in on the location of the hidden key (e.g. locked up for thieves only, not family), yes)

I think you are unable to see past the firearm somehow. Is it more dangerous than a vehicle?

What if the kid had stolen his parents vehicle and run over a bunch of classmates on the playground? Would you be clamoring for the car keys to have been locked up because the car was inherently dangerous?

 

[Hoosierdood]

And I will ask again, why only THESE parents?

Because that’s what we are talking about in this thread. Why is that so hard to understand? We aren’t talking about generalities. You are the only one doing that. We are talking about a specific set of people who performed specific actions and who need to be held accountable for those actions.

Everyone has a choice. The shooter had a choice. And he is solely responsible for the consequences of his choice. The parents had a choice. If their actions constitute negligence, they should be responsible for the consequences of that choice.

I don’t get why you are so hung up on make believe scenarios here. We aren’t talking about “what if’s”. We are talking about a specific case and the specific actions that each player made.

 

[Hoosierdood]

 

[BugI02]

I don’t recall anyone attempting to absolve the shooter of his crime due to a difficult life. Maybe I missed something?

Then why ARE you attempting to spread responsibility for his actions to the parents. Absent evidence that the parents wanted and encouraged him to take revenge on his classmates, I just don't see it

It seems the Alec Baldwin contretemps redux, that somehow others are responsible or share responsibility because Baldwin CHOSE to point a firearm at another and pull the trigger (or fan the hammer, if you will). Baldwin is the only one responsible for Baldwin's choices and actions

The same holds true for Ethan Crumbley