Why pay a premium for a Glock, or CZ, or H&K?

[grillak]

Yeah sub 500 is a good deal.

I guess im just used to not having nice things. Ive always thought ergos where ok.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

of course i have to get me another sig before i buy a glock.

because...ooooh my sig...i just love my sig.

 

[Johnman98]

Seems to me a gun is just something you shouldn't be cheap on. I love my HK and have the utmost confidence it will go bang when called upon.

 

[grillak]

Seems to me a gun is just something you shouldn't be cheap on. I love my HK and have the utmost confidence it will go bang when called upon.

i agree. but....some of these budget guns are very reliable. maybe i've been lucky or maybe taurus cooked up a really good recipe.

but nothing beats KNOWN quality.

SIG FOREVER!!

 

[gglass]

Let me get this straight... For the price of a few boxes of ammo at today's prices, you would choose a Taurus over a Glock?

I believe that the forum should charge by the hour for the gun therapy that is obviously going on here.

 

[DadSmith]

It doesn't have to be a Glock to be dependable and trustworthy. Springfield, Smith and Wesson, Sig, H&K, Ruger and many others out there are as well.

 

[grillak]

Let me get this straight... For the price of a few boxes of ammo at today's prices, you would choose a Taurus over a Glock?

I believe that the forum should charge by the hour for the gun therapy that is obviously going on here.

with that tone let me put it a couple of different ways...

if i put 1k+ rounds through my taurus without an issue and you put 1k+ rounds through you glock without an issue, where's the problem in saving a couple hundred bucks.

or...i definitely chose my SIG over a GLOCK!

straight now?

 

[DadSmith]

with that tone let me put it a couple of different ways...

if i put 1k+ rounds through my taurus without an issue and you put 1k+ rounds through you glock without an issue, where's the problem in saving a couple hundred bucks.

or...i definitely chose my SIG over a GLOCK!

straight now?

I've ran several Taurus handguns well over 1k. In fact I ran a G2c over 1k in 2 days without cleaning it other than when I did the initial clean and lube when I got it home from the lgs. It ran over 1k rds in two days without any more cleaning or lubrication. I think that is plenty reliable for self-defense. I ran it hard trying to make it fail. From Cheap Russian steel case, Winchester White Box, my +p reloads of HP and coated hard cast RN bullets.

 

[grillak]

I've ran several Taurus handguns well over 1k. In fact I ran a G2c over 1k in 2 days without cleaning it other than when I did the initial clean and lube when I got it home from the lgs. It ran over 1k rds in two days without any more cleaning or lubrication. I think that is plenty reliable for self-defense. I ran it hard trying to make it fail. From Cheap Russian steel case, Winchester White Box, my +p reloads of HP and coated hard cast RN bullets.

i really like the g2c. i did some research before i bought one. read the good, the bad, and the ugly. there was a lot of good reviews. i ended up buying one in 9mm and haven't had any peoblems with it either.

i have never owned a glock or even fired one. i've heard good, bad, and ugly about glocks as well. but the attitude of some glock owners steered me towards other brands. once i try one i may well buy one. but i WILL buy another sig before i buy a glock.

i've never just taken the word of the fanbase to decide on a purchase.

 

[DadSmith]

i really like the g2c. i did some research before i bought one. read the good, the bad, and the ugly. there was a lot of good reviews. i ended up buying one in 9mm and haven't had any peoblems with it either.

i have never owned a glock or even fired one. i've heard good, bad, and ugly about glocks as well. but the attitude of some glock owners steered me towards other brands. once i try one i may well buy one. but i WILL buy another sig before i buy a glock.

i've never just taken the word of the fanbase to decide on a purchase.

I owned a Glock 20sf and it was accurate and reliable but the ergonomics are absolutely horrible. My nephew who is an E6 in the Air Force bought a Glock 22 it was jam o matic, so was my daughter's Glock 42 another jam o matic. So out of three Glocks I have owned or fired 66% were unreliable. I'm not saying they all are obviously they are not because so many people swear by them. I am saying Glock also has lemons just like any other company.

 

[mark40sw]

only bothered to watch the bottom video. you may want to watch the authors follow up video

 

[DadSmith]

only bothered to watch the bottom video. you may want to watch the authors follow up video

I don't need to watch that video I owned a Glock 20sf and found it completely reliable and accurate. If there was a problem with his it was probably just a lemon. It happens to every manufacturer. Doesn't matter how good their reputation is.

 

[Kernelkrink]

Glocks are popular with LE because they came along at the perfect time. In the 80s when the G17 first appeared in the US, many PDs were transitioning from DA revolvers to semi autos. As any police firearms trainer will tell you, while some LEO are "shooters", the vast majority of any department is going to be lax in self motivation when it comes to firearms training. The Glock appealed to PDs because the trigger is essentially a DA only trigger, and has no manual safety. Something their already revolver-trained cops were familiar with. Teach them how to load a magazine, rack the slide, change mags and maybe how to clean it and no class/range time has to be devoted to safety use or dealing with the 2 trigger pulls of a traditional DA semi auto.

Also, Glock gave a hell of a discount for agency purchases. So they were relatively cheap, reduced training costs, and were reliable and accurate enough for police work. With few parts, they were also easier and cheaper to fix. No surprise, PDs started issuing them everywhere.

Are they the "best gun ever made"? For the purposes of arming large numbers of all types of people who have to be trained and competent to a minimum standard, they work very well and are economical to issue.

Personally, the Glocks never fit my hand and that is the only reason I don't own a Glock. However, I own 3 of the Polymer 80 based "not a Glock" pistols, a G17, a G19, and "Glockzilla", my 6.6" bbl longslide 10mm with compensator and Vortex Viper red dot. These do in fact fit my hand well and I like them, but the lack of a manual safety and requirement to have a proper holster to safely carry them keeps them out of my CCW plans most of the time. "Glock Leg" and Glock Butt" are enough of a problem that folks have come up with multiple solutions, ranging from Kevlar holsters that catch bullets fired in them, add-on manual safeties (even factory Glock installed ones), to a rear slide plate that keeps the striker from moving when being holstered. Anything that gets between the trigger and the holster can set them off when holstering, not just your trigger finger. Loose clothing is probably the number one offender here.

My current "full size" CCW choice is a S&W M&P 2.0 compact in 9mm with the manual safety and factory night sights. I got a hell of a deal on it, gun and 3 magazines was about $400 OTD from Rural King a few years ago during one of their "special purchase" sales. Fits my hand well, used police surplus magazines are cheap, and so far has gone bang every time I pulled the trigger and stayed silent when I haven't. I even hit the target regularly with it. What more could you ask for, performance wise?

I also own 2 Taurus PT111 G2 pistols, they also work well, fit my hand, and have manual safeties. I can also carry them chamber loaded with a DA first shot, a bit of extra safety when I am just putting it into my coat pocket for a quick trip or backup. Other than a habit of breaking the trigger face safety (they still fire) I haven't heard a lot of bad experiences with them. I certainly haven't had any.

Above a certain price point to ensure no corners are being cut in materials or quality (hello, Yeet Cannon!), a lot of gun pricing is "what the market will bear", not an indicator that X is 300% better than Y. Glock and other polymer framed striker fired designs are made the way they are because the cost to manufacture them is lower. Once a (very expensive) frame mold is made, you can crank out thousands and thousands of frames for just a few dollars each before the mold needs replaced. No machinist needed, no CNC machining centers, etc. Same for a "blocky" slide, no machine time "wasted" creating unnecessary aesthetic embellishments. Stamped metal parts and MIM parts are cheaper to make than cutting them out with a machine.

 

[DadSmith]

This never happened to my Glock 20sf.


The evil Taurus makes another gun that can fire 1k rds.

 

[Sitcomdad83]

First I've been there where a hi point and used Taurus guns was absolutely the best I could afford so I'm not going to knock taurus but other than the pt92 id stay away from. Once I got out of the bad financial/life situations I got a Taurus every now and then and had numerous issues. Customer service bites and they will send you nothing or let you buy either. As far as breakage a guide snapped on a 945 iirc 24\7 sear snapped off sa side and 709 broke a firing pin all within the first few range sessions. I've heard great things about the g3 series but I'd pass unless the seller needed cash bad or I had a ton of disposable cash come my way. To me a track record and parts and mag availability are a must and depending on model I've not seen enough to warrant another Taurus purchase for now.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I wonder why CZ hasn't made any inroads into Glocks police and military contracts? The P10F is a fine duty polymer frame and so far very reliable with a flush fit 19rd magazine. It is about the same price maybe a hair lower than A Gen 5 Glock 17.



This video sums sums up the P10F pretty good. I've given mine a good workout I just can't get it to fail. Even limp wristing it.

Glock is already entrenched and nothing CZ does is so much better as to overcome that inertia. Think of the logistics of securing new gun leather, training armorers, securing repair/maintenance parts, retraining officers, etc. It's not worth it. Individuals can chase flavor of the day, and so can fly-speck organizations but large organizations need major investment to swap equipment. Sig made a little bit of headway, but you have to do things like free armorer classes, free leather, etc.

Taurus is used by South American Military and police. I'm not sure what Taurus firearms they use but they are in use down there. According to Taurus there are some police departments in the United States that use Taurus as well. Again not sure what Taurus firearms they use.

With rare exception, I don't think South American military units are regarded as particularly effective fighting forces, and procurement isn't exactly a competitive testing process. So, while true I'm not sure it's much of a decision point.

 

[DadSmith]

Glock is already entrenched and nothing CZ does is so much better as to overcome that inertia. Think of the logistics of securing new gun leather, training armorers, securing repair/maintenance parts, retraining officers, etc. It's not worth it. Individuals can chase flavor of the day, and so can fly-speck organizations but large organizations need major investment to swap equipment. Sig made a little bit of headway, but you have to do things like free armorer classes, free leather, etc.



With rare exception, I don't think South American military units are regarded as particularly effective fighting forces, and procurement isn't exactly a competitive testing process. So, while true I'm not sure it's much of a decision point.

Most go bang 2/3 of the time lol

 

[apsjiml]

I just wanted to ask the question because you can get a very nice, reliable, latest model Taurus G3 for less than half of any of those, or for a third in some cases.
I have shot a Glock and it's a nice weapon. Is it $250 nicer than the Taurus?? You guys tell me.

I have asked that same question. I will tell you, my neighbor loves his Taurus , thousands of rounds no issues . I have spoken to others and no issues. Glock is cool though because there is so many accessories for it. I just saw something that clips on the front that essentially adds another magazine on it. Also those Roni and all different magazines, 30 round mags etc. Also, the other firearms that take those glock magazines in ar 15 platforms. That is cool. I wonder about the glock being made in the usa if it is as good or just the same as it was before?

 

[gregr]

I owned a Glock 20sf and it was accurate and reliable but the ergonomics are absolutely horrible. My nephew who is an E6 in the Air Force bought a Glock 22 it was jam o matic, so was my daughter's Glock 42 another jam o matic. So out of three Glocks I have owned or fired 66% were unreliable. I'm not saying they all are obviously they are not because so many people swear by them. I am saying Glock also has lemons just like any other company.

Can`t limp wrist when shooting. Maybe that was a cause?

 

[DadSmith]

Can`t limp wrist when shooting. Maybe that was a cause?

I shot both of them and another person at the range we all had problems. I highly doubt I was limp wristing since I shoot the Glock 20sf without problems.

They both sold them and bought a 1911 one a Springfield and Daughter bought a RIA 1911.

 

[ECS686]

Glocks are popular with LE because they came along at the perfect time. In the 80s when the G17 first appeared in the US, many PDs were transitioning from DA revolvers to semi autos. As any police firearms trainer will tell you, while some LEO are "shooters", the vast majority of any department is going to be lax in self motivation when it comes to firearms training. The Glock appealed to PDs because the trigger is essentially a DA only trigger, and has no manual safety. Something their already revolver-trained cops were familiar with. Teach them how to load a magazine, rack the slide, change mags and maybe how to clean it and no class/range time has to be devoted to safety use or dealing with the 2 trigger pulls of a traditional DA semi auto.

Also, Glock gave a hell of a discount for agency purchases. So they were relatively cheap, reduced training costs, and were reliable and accurate enough for police work. With few parts, they were also easier and cheaper to fix. No surprise, PDs started issuing them everywhere.

Are they the "best gun ever made"? For the purposes of arming large numbers of all types of people who have to be trained and competent to a minimum standard, they work very well and are economical to issue.

Personally, the Glocks never fit my hand and that is the only reason I don't own a Glock. However, I own 3 of the Polymer 80 based "not a Glock" pistols, a G17, a G19, and "Glockzilla", my 6.6" bbl longslide 10mm with compensator and Vortex Viper red dot. These do in fact fit my hand well and I like them, but the lack of a manual safety and requirement to have a proper holster to safely carry them keeps them out of my CCW plans most of the time. "Glock Leg" and Glock Butt" are enough of a problem that folks have come up with multiple solutions, ranging from Kevlar holsters that catch bullets fired in them, add-on manual safeties (even factory Glock installed ones), to a rear slide plate that keeps the striker from moving when being holstered. Anything that gets between the trigger and the holster can set them off when holstering, not just your trigger finger. Loose clothing is probably the number one offender here.

My current "full size" CCW choice is a S&W M&P 2.0 compact in 9mm with the manual safety and factory night sights. I got a hell of a deal on it, gun and 3 magazines was about $400 OTD from Rural King a few years ago during one of their "special purchase" sales. Fits my hand well, used police surplus magazines are cheap, and so far has gone bang every time I pulled the trigger and stayed silent when I haven't. I even hit the target regularly with it. What more could you ask for, performance wise?

I also own 2 Taurus PT111 G2 pistols, they also work well, fit my hand, and have manual safeties. I can also carry them chamber loaded with a DA first shot, a bit of extra safety when I am just putting it into my coat pocket for a quick trip or backup. Other than a habit of breaking the trigger face safety (they still fire) I haven't heard a lot of bad experiences with them. I certainly haven't had any.

Above a certain price point to ensure no corners are being cut in materials or quality (hello, Yeet Cannon!), a lot of gun pricing is "what the market will bear", not an indicator that X is 300% better than Y. Glock and other polymer framed striker fired designs are made the way they are because the cost to manufacture them is lower. Once a (very expensive) frame mold is made, you can crank out thousands and thousands of frames for just a few dollars each before the mold needs replaced. No machinist needed, no CNC machining centers, etc. Same for a "blocky" slide, no machine time "wasted" creating unnecessary aesthetic embellishments. Stamped metal parts and MIM parts are cheaper to make than cutting them out with a machine.

Not meaning to get off topic but I'll ad to this as a LE trainer. Many many agencies had a lot of ADs when going to Glocks from DA revolvers or traditional Hammer fired DA/SA autos. So many it was termed Glock Leg.

This was due to institutional inbreeding where the 10 to 14 pound DA pull allowed some to get by with bad gun habits where a 5 pound striker was not so forgiving. (but in 1988 we did stuff a little different in a bad way)

As far as the shooting abilities or training. LE generally has a 10% 80% 10% breakdown. Top 10% are your folks that train on their own time and dime. Take quals serious and always try and improve. Your top shooters and tacticians. Then the bulk are 80% that meet minimum standards (which doesn't mean they are proficient they just meet the minimum standards so check box til next qual)

Then the bottom 10% are what causes agencies to dumb stuff down for everyone else.