Florida stand your ground. Dont play stupid games

[Route 45]

Something interesting that I didn't know about Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. No wonder they didn't arrest the shooter.


....it holds the arresting agency civilly liable if an arrest is made in a case later deemed to fall within the criteria of "stand your ground," meaning the agency would have to pay back attorney's fees, lost wages and other expenses. Eliminating that clause, he said, would allow more cases to go before a jury.


https://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bayb...ur-ground-law-needs-significant-improvements/

 

[KLB]

Something interesting that I didn't know about Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. No wonder they didn't arrest the shooter.


....it holds the arresting agency civilly liable if an arrest is made in a case later deemed to fall within the criteria of "stand your ground," meaning the agency would have to pay back attorney's fees, lost wages and other expenses. Eliminating that clause, he said, would allow more cases to go before a jury.


https://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bayb...ur-ground-law-needs-significant-improvements/

Hmm...The law gives the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. Plus protects the shooter from having to pay for a legal defense against unfounded charges.

Looks like somehow the .gov in Florida gave the advantage to the citizen in these cases. That is a surprise.

 

[Randy Harris]

Can anyone tell me with certainty that the boyfriend was done with his attack, or if he was that the girlfriend would not say something to incense him to renew the attack?



Finally, can anyone say with certainty EXACTLY what they would have done if they were the one on the ground?

No one can tell you with CERTAINTY that a Leprechaun was not about to ride up on a Unicorn and give a pot of gold to someone......so there is no way of knowing for SURE what the boyfriend was going to do in the next 5 seconds...

However....from the body language and the reaction of the "pusher", the attack was over once the gun came out. He then begins backing away and THEN he is shot. He's not closing with the downed guy ....he's backing up.

As to what I'd do? What I have actually practiced and what I teach. The same thing I do every other time I'm knocked to the ground in training similar scenarios to this. Get my feet between me and him, get my hands and arms to my chest between my torso and him (what Cecil Burch calls Survival Posture) and get my shoulders and 1 hip up off the deck so I can move on the other hip and keep my feet between me and him .... That is the 1st thing.

Next depends on if I truly feel like my life is in danger I will likely establish grip on my pistol and get ready to draw. If there is enough space to allow it and I can still physically do it then I will get up. If he continues the attack he gets shot. If he does not continue then he does not but the cops will get called and it will all be on video.

But having said that I'm smart enough to mind my own "F"ing business and not harangue people for parking in a handicap spot.....

 

[Denny347]

Dude, getting shoved to the ground is absolutely a "big whoop" to me. There is no "fall correctly" if you don't have the ability to "fall correctly."

I'm amazed at the number of people who think getting knocked down is no big deal.

Getting pushed to the ground and not advanced on=not a "big deal". Make sure you don't reach back as you fall, keep your chin tucked to keep your head from hitting the ground, and disperse the energy as you hit the ground (there are a number of ways to do that). If you didn't hit your head, or broke a bone, and the suspect is NOT advancing on you, get back up. If you do all that and the suspect advances, then I can see the specific actions needed to articulate deadly force.

 

[HoughMade]

Pfft, I'm gonna go around yelling at a guy's girl and kid all I want and no one better do anything.

 

[doddg]

Getting in here way late but....

We essentially have a busy body "parking lot avenger" who berates someone for parking in a handicap spot. He then becomes the victim of an aggravated assault and battery when he is blindsided and knocked to the ground by her boyfriend . Our busy body then draws his gun and challenges the boyfriend who BACKS AWAY. He then decides to shoot the guy as he is still backing away.

1. Mind your own business. Stop being a busybody crusader. Who commissioned you as the handicap spot patrol? Is reading someone the riot act over a parking space really all that important?

2. Did you ever think of maybe TALKING to the guy who you find arguing with your girlfriend instead of just essentially "sucker punching " him? Might this have turned out differently if he'd come out and said "Hey man, sorry, we'll be gone in a minute" or even yelling at him to "Shut the F up and back off" instead of just leveling the guy without even talking to him?

3. Ask yourself what are you really willing to kill someone over. Our parking lot avenger essentially ends up killing a guy over a PARKING SPOT. And that goes both ways..... If the guy who got knocked down had hit his head on the pavement and died then the other guy would have killed someone in an argument over...a PARKING SPOT. Grow the hell up and act like human beings!

4. What are you willing to die over? I'm sure we're all chivalrous men who would die to protect our significant other ....but she was just in an ARGUMENT...the first guy was not beating, raping, or stabbing her...he was just TALKING RUDELY to her. Step in and diffuse it with your words. But the boyfriend couldn't keep his emotions in check and interjected himself into an argument he was not an original party to and turned that into aggravated assault and then got shot and killed for it... again...you might try TALKING to the other guy first instead of acting like a damn street hoodlum or an animal. At least make an effort to deescalate. Then if HE escalates it then fine ...but by escalating the way he did he ends up dying in a pool of his own blood on the floor of a convenience store in front of his kids...why? Because he couldn't keep his ***** together and flew off the handle and decked some dude for TALKING RUDELY to his girlfriend. How'd that work out for you? Are you really willing to die over an argument about a parking spot? THINK before you act.

5. There are no victims here. NONE. The girlfriend is a selfish idiot for parking in a handicap spot when other spots were available. The parking lot avenger is an idiot for going about armed and confronting people over a damn parking spot. Use some common sense dude.You are setting the stage for this to happen by being a busybody....The boyfriend is an idiot for flat out committing unjustified aggravated assault and if he hadn't died he'd likely have been convicted in court of the aggravated assault ...but instead the parking lot avenger killed him out of fear aggression. If the parking lot protector had simply held him at gunpoint (or even run him off) and called the cops then dude who died would likely be a resident of the state for the assault he committed on video....not taking up space in the vault at the morgue.

6. If this did go to trial and I'm on the jury the parking lot avenger is getting a guilty verdict....you can't shoot people once the threat is over. If you challenge them and they back away then they are no longer a lethal threat. By drawing the gun and threatening him you are asking for compliance (for him to stop) . Once you get that compliance you cannot then shoot them for not complying.....I'll be surprised if the state does not pursue this in court. Was he justified in drawing? I'd say yes...he was...was he justified in shooting after the boyfriend backs off ? No...he was not.

A. Much wisdom! Great insight and a good summation of what others have said (I haven't been reading the thread lately, though).

 

[lovemachine]

Unfortunately, there’s a lot of people out there that don’t realize just because they can legally carry a gun, that doesn’t mean they can shoot anyone they want.

 

[spec4]

Well, the boyfriends family will no doubt go for the civil suit, especially if the shooter has assets. I suppose down the road we'll hear how it goes.

 

[churchmouse]

The aggression starts with a guy yelling at a woman and child...

Bingo.

 

[nra4ever]

Something interesting that I didn't know about Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law. No wonder they didn't arrest the shooter.


....it holds the arresting agency civilly liable if an arrest is made in a case later deemed to fall within the criteria of "stand your ground," meaning the agency would have to pay back attorney's fees, lost wages and other expenses. Eliminating that clause, he said, would allow more cases to go before a jury.


https://www.tampabay.com/blogs/bayb...ur-ground-law-needs-significant-improvements/

Wow. That is awesome. We need something like that here in Indiana.

 

[nra4ever]

Well, the boyfriends family will no doubt go for the civil suit, especially if the shooter has assets. I suppose down the road we'll hear how it goes.

you see that neighborhood. He was a regular there. I doubt he has much to take but you never know.

 

[BugI02]

Unfortunately, there’s a lot of people out there that don’t realize just because they can legally carry a gun, that doesn’t mean they can shoot anyone they want.

If we could, there would be lanes opening up on the freeway

 

[hopper68]

Does carry insurance cover losses from a civil suit?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

All reasons why the sheriff says it's a legal application of Florida's law regarding firearm usage. Barely.

Ultimately, we're not convicting anyone here, we are trying to study the tape and learn from it.


You're probably right, it was all a pantomime.


Really no one can say how exactly we'd react in that situation. Nevertheless, there's plenty of other things to take away.

Mimes are the worst! If it was pantomime then he deserved to be shoved.

 

[hopper68]

Mimes are the worst! If it was pantomime then he deserved to be shoved.

A mime is a terrible thing to waste......

 

[DoggyDaddy]

A mime is a terrible thing to waste......

 

[WebSnyper]

5. There are no victims here. NONE. The girlfriend is a selfish idiot for parking in a handicap spot when other spots were available. The parking lot avenger is an idiot for going about armed and confronting people over a damn parking spot. Use some common sense dude.You are setting the stage for this to happen by being a busybody....The boyfriend is an idiot for flat out committing unjustified aggravated assault and if he hadn't died he'd likely have been convicted in court of the aggravated assault ...but instead the parking lot avenger killed him out of fear aggression. If the parking lot protector had simply held him at gunpoint (or even run him off) and called the cops then dude who died would likely be a resident of the state for the assault he committed on video....not taking up space in the vault at the morgue.

This sums it up pretty well.

 

[Vigilant]

Does carry insurance cover losses from a civil suit?

USCCA does. Don’t know about the rest.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

No one can tell you with CERTAINTY that a Leprechaun was not about to ride up on a Unicorn and give a pot of gold to someone......so there is no way of knowing for SURE what the boyfriend was going to do in the next 5 seconds...

Finally, another INGOer who realizes the difference between what he knows and what he doesn't know.

Speaking of what we don't know, one variable that hasn't been brought up is the possibility that the shooter DIDN'T intend to shoot the other guy, and maybe he WAS hoping to stop the situation from escalating, but then the adrenaline got the better of him and caused his finger to press too hard on the trigger.......and BANG!

I think we'd all be surprised how many people get shot because the person pointing the gun at them with their finger on the trigger (like they've seen on TV a bazillion times) gets nervous, or makes a move, and the gun unintentionally goes off. I'd bet a dollar that it's happened in more armed robberies than we all would think.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Finally, another INGOer who realizes the difference between what he knows and what he doesn't know.

Speaking of what we don't know, one variable that hasn't been brought up is the possibility that the shooter DIDN'T intend to shoot the other guy, and maybe he WAS hoping to stop the situation from escalating, but then the adrenaline got the better of him and caused his finger to press too hard on the trigger.......and BANG!

I think we'd all be surprised how many people get shot because the person pointing the gun at them with their finger on the trigger (like they've seen on TV a bazillion times) gets nervous, or makes a move, and the gun unintentionally goes off. I'd bet a dollar that it's happened in more armed robberies than we all would think.

For a moment let's go with your premise. Let's say beyond the shadow of a doubt this was 100% "opps didn't mean to pull the trigger, finger slipped"

This does not absolve him of the responsibility of of the bullet that came out of the gun. We preach these rules till we are blue in the face.

You are on the hook for every bullet that comes out of your gun intentional or not so keep your fingers crossed off the trigger until you are ready to destroy what ever it's pointed at.