Trump acting as President

[churchmouse]

Nah....It just adds character to a real character

 

[Jludo]

Im not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying that it is. I'm not saying it is efficient or fair. It just is. I will say it sucks. But it still is.

So just to keep from confusing anyone, let's recap. The incentives are part of current reality. Our tax rate is so high, we compensate by giving these breaks. This creates an environment that at its best causes confusion and unfair advantage, and at its worst opens the door for corruption. The current system, such as it is, was leveraged to keep from shipping jobs across the border.

Dont like it? Republicans control both houses and the governor's mansion. So get cracking with the phone calls and emails. Get a system put in place that flattens and reduces (or eliminates) corporate taxes, as well as eleminating other incentives. Make this and the hundreds of other deals relics of a defunct tax code.

Or just pick this one deal as your cause celeb and whine about it on INGO.

Come now, it is what it is and to voice your opposition is whining? Hearing your opinion echoed back at you doesn't make for the best conversation does it?

 

[Woobie]

Come now, it is what it is and to voice your opposition is whining? Hearing your opinion echoed back at you doesn't make for the best conversation does it?

I come from a culture where you don't complain or offer an opinion without accompanying it with a solution. If you don't have a solution, you're whining.

I hear cronyism!!! But I don't hear anyone suggesting a fix so this doesn't happen again.

And yes, it absolutely is what it is. And that's a shame. So change what it will be, or it will be what it has been.

And you're right, it doesn't make for good conversation. But in a lively discussion you have to poke the other side a bit sometimes.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I think if Trump and Pence had cured pancreatic cancer, people would ***** because they didn't cure brain cancer. In the meantime, the people with pancreatic cancer are thrilled. The people with brain cancer, not so much.

 

[Jludo]

I think if Trump and Pence had cured pancreatic cancer, people would ***** because they didn't cure brain cancer. In the meantime, the people with pancreatic cancer are thrilled. The people with brain cancer, not so much.

I think Trump could shoot people on 5th Avenue and he wouldn't lose support...

 

[hoosierdoc]

I think Trump could shoot people on 5th Avenue and he wouldn't lose support...

isn't that a rough quote of his?

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I think Trump could shoot people on 5th Avenue and he wouldn't lose support...

My point is, they're not even in office yet. They did a good thing, or at least helped to facilitate it. Instead of celebrating a "victory", albeit a small one, I see more hand-wringing than before. I guess I am a glass half full kinda guy.

 

[churchmouse]

I come from a culture where you don't complain or offer an opinion without accompanying it with a solution. If you don't have a solution, you're whining.

I hear cronyism!!! But I don't hear anyone suggesting a fix so this doesn't happen again.

And yes, it absolutely is what it is. And that's a shame. So change what it will be, or it will be what it has been.

And you're right, it doesn't make for good conversation. But in a lively discussion you have to pole the other side a bit sometimes.

This is where I come from as well.
I asked a few times up stream what could or would be done.
The answers (or attempts at) were not solutions. They were sound bites.

I am as guilty as anyone to speak out and really not have a solution in mind. In this situation there is not really an absolute. Men of power and position working all the available angles to keep said power/position and come out on or near the top. This will not change.

 

[churchmouse]

I think Trump could shoot people on 5th Avenue and he wouldn't lose support...

I think Bill and Hillary could sell secrets to the Chinese/sell favor/lie steal cheat and philander and not loose any support.....Oh yeah, and there is that pesky trail of body's...

Goose....Gander
Pot....Kettle

 

[phylodog]

Took 27 pages but the real issue finally came into the light

 

[Jludo]

My point is, they're not even in office yet. They did a good thing, or at least helped to facilitate it. Instead of celebrating a "victory", albeit a small one, I see more hand-wringing than before. I guess I am a glass half full kinda guy.

its not my quote

 

[Kutnupe14]

I think Bill and Hillary could sell secrets to the Chinese/sell favor/lie steal cheat and philander and not loose any support.....Oh yeah, and there is that pesky trail of body's...

Goose....Gander
Pot....Kettle

Speaking of the Chinese.... Trump apparently called the president of Taiwan today. A nations we haven't had diplomatic relations with, since Carter. That act alone is seriously going to **** the Chinese off. I'm pretty baffled that he would do this, not because it's the wrong thing to do, but because it came out of nowhere, and his intentions weren't made to the Chinese. No, it's not a strong "look tough" move, it's an absolutely dumb move. Well, I guess it's never to early to brush off you old dusty MADD documents, build a bunker in your backyard, and kickstart the cold war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/u...-leader-a-possible-affront-to-china.html?_r=0

Kut (thinks Russia can't believe their luck)

 

[churchmouse]

Speaking of the Chinese.... Trump apparently called the president of Taiwan today. A nations we haven't had diplomatic relations with, since Carter. That act alone is seriously going to **** the Chinese off. I'm pretty baffled that he would do this, not because it's the wrong thing to do, but because it came out of nowhere, and his intentions weren't made to the Chinese. No, it's not a strong "look tough" move, it's an absolutely dumb move. Well, I guess it's never to early to brush off you old dusty MADD documents, build a bunker in your backyard, and kickstart the cold war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/u...-leader-a-possible-affront-to-china.html?_r=0

Kut (thinks Russia can't believe their luck)

Admittedly I am not as up to speed on these issues as some.
This man will not be status quo.

 

[foszoe]

Speaking of the Chinese.... Trump apparently called the president of Taiwan today. A nations we haven't had diplomatic relations with, since Carter. That act alone is seriously going to **** the Chinese off. I'm pretty baffled that he would do this, not because it's the wrong thing to do, but because it came out of nowhere, and his intentions weren't made to the Chinese. No, it's not a strong "look tough" move, it's an absolutely dumb move. Well, I guess it's never to early to brush off you old dusty MADD documents, build a bunker in your backyard, and kickstart the cold war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/u...-leader-a-possible-affront-to-china.html?_r=0

Kut (thinks Russia can't believe their luck)

According to Trump Tweets, Taiwan called Trump. I think there is a difference between Taking a Call and Making a Call, but I am not gonna trust a Trump Tweet either

Either way it will not please the Chinese but I am waiting for the verification on who called who.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Speaking of the Chinese.... Trump apparently called the president of Taiwan today. A nations we haven't had diplomatic relations with, since Carter. That act alone is seriously going to **** the Chinese off. I'm pretty baffled that he would do this, not because it's the wrong thing to do, but because it came out of nowhere, and his intentions weren't made to the Chinese. No, it's not a strong "look tough" move, it's an absolutely dumb move. Well, I guess it's never to early to brush off you old dusty MADD documents, build a bunker in your backyard, and kickstart the cold war.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/02/u...-leader-a-possible-affront-to-china.html?_r=0

Kut (thinks Russia can't believe their luck)

I think this is going to be much ado about nothing. He can't act in an official capacity yet. I think the Chinese would be more offended if he had done this after taking office. This gives him the advantage of gaging their reaction before he's in a position to do anything "official". Know your enemy.

 

[Brad69]

Do not underestimate the Trump that call was to make a strategic point.
Thats all I got no idea why?
Other than to irritate China

 

[Twangbanger]

Getting back to the Carrier deal, I do not think the $7 million in incentives had much to do with this.

The wage differential I heard was $3 an hour vs. $26 an hour. That's a delta of $23 an hour, or $46k per year, per employee. There were going to be $65 Million in savings, with that wage differential multiplied across 1400 employees. And now - we really believe Carrier is going to settle for $37 Million LESS in savings, PER YEAR, in exchange for a measly $7 Million in incentives?

No. They were either shamed into keeping some jobs...they genuinely thought this was worth it to get Trump's ear for a while...or...they were worried about their Government contracts.

Here's a NYT article which seems to suggest some of the points above:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/01/business/economy/trump-carrier-pence-jobs.html?_r=0

The folks stressing the "crony incentives" angle are mostly getting it wrong. They should be playing the "authoritarian" angle. This was a "one-off" deal, precisely because the specific characteristics of this particular deal-target made them more willing to deal than other companies might be. It turns out the incentives were the least part of it. This company is into the taxpayer, Bigly, and wants to stay that way.

(excerpt, for those who care about the details):

"...United Technologies, Carrier’s parent, saw the writing on the wall as soon as Mr. Trump declared victory last month. Offering to preserve jobs, even at the cost of some of the $65 million savings the company expected from the move, could serve its larger corporate interests.“Every penny counts, but if we step back and I’m looking at earnings of $6.60 per share this year, 2 cents is an easy concession if the president-elect listens to some of the company’s bigger concerns,” said Howard Rubel, a senior equity analyst with Jefferies, an investment banking firm in New York.
And Mr. Trump and Mr. Pence, while providing a carrot through the state incentives and promises of future business tax cuts, held an implicit stick: the threat of pulling federal contracts from Carrier’s parent, United Technologies. Mr. Trump and his team were well aware that the amount United Technologies stood to lose in those contracts dwarfed the savings from moving some of its operations to Monterrey from Indiana.
Despite only accomplishing half of what had been promised in the campaign, Mr. Trump and Mr. Pence predicted that the number of jobs ultimately preserved could rise as Carrier follows through on its promise to invest more than $16 million in the state.
That provision, plus the incentives, were worked out between Carrier and officials from the state of Indiana’s economic development office, with Mr. Pence overseeing the process.

The vice president-elect insisted that the incentives did not represent a giveaway on Mr. Trump’s part, and claimed United Technologies had turned down a similar-size package of breaks in March.
What made the difference, he said, was Mr. Trump’s public pressure, as well his promise to cut corporate taxes and ease regulation.
“These jobs were gone,” Mr. Pence said. “I sat the executives down in my governor’s office in the statehouse in early March. They said we aren’t in a position to reconsider this in any way, shape or form.”
Mr. Trump, too, played down the role of the incentives. And he said he did not directly raise the $5 billion to $6 billion in federal contracts United Technologies receives, much of it from the Pentagon.
But company officials are acutely aware that its Pratt & Whitney unit, among other things, supplies jet engines to the Air Force’s most advanced fighter and many other planes, making it much more vulnerable to political pressure than other, lesser-known manufacturers that have been steadily closing shop in the Midwest and moving production south of the border.
“It may have a played a role in their equation,” Mr. Trump allowed. “I never mentioned it. I didn’t feel I had to.”

 

[bwframe]

Nevertrumpers gonna nevertrump.

 

[ars]

I guess I am a simpleton. Whatever economic package or political statement you subscribe, Americans have kept jobs that were going to lose them. Good job Trump/Pence. I believe we should try to do the same for all companies. However, if you can't save every job, save the ones that you can when you can.

 

[churchmouse]

I guess I am a simpleton. Whatever economic package or political statement you subscribe, Americans have kept jobs that were going to lose them. Good job Trump/Pence. I believe we should try to do the same for all companies. However, if you can't save every job, save the ones that you can when you can.

great 50th post.