Dispelling the ‘Few Extremists’ Myth – the Muslim World Is Overcome with Hate

[KJQ6945]

BBI, you and your family would be welcome in my my home. I don't care what your religion is, what color you are. My only stipulation would be, you respect me and my culture. To me, I think that's where the disconnect is. If I chose to go to Jordan, because I thought that's the place I want to be, that's the culture I want my kids to be from, I'm going to assimilate to that culture. That does not seem to be the path most Muslims are taking, and my issue with it.
My admitted ignorance aside, tell me what I'm missing? There really seems to be a takeover playing out, of MY culture.
I try hard not to be a bigot, and be tolerant, but sometimes I feel we are being invaded with the intent to be erased.

Immigration within my lifetime, appears to have had little to do with wanting to come to the United States to adapt to the greatest way of life in the history of the planet, and more to do with taking it over, (Islam), or just exploiting it, (the southern border crossers). Does this fact make me a bigot.
I just want to preserve my culture, my heritage, no matter how ****ed up the progressives think it is. I have no desire to go somewhere and force my culture or religion on others, or change theirs into mine. I don't believe you do either.
I don't see Muslims coming to the west to adapt to it, I see Muslims coming to the west to conquer it, and history tends to agree. At least for now, until it gets rewritten.

 

[IndyDave1776]

That's a big ask.

Yes, it is, and I certainly don't expect you to have a packaged answer. It was as much an explanation of my own issues as a request for clarification.

I definitely would agree that war is not necessarily wrong as a matter of unyielding principle. My concerns here generally turn on the combination of historic tendency toward the effort at conquest and seeing indications of it becoming an issue once again.

I also would be remiss in failing to point out that I was never in the military. I enjoy military history and as a consequence often know more about it than one would typically expect from a nonparticipant, but nevertheless, I didn't have the front row seat. I might well choose otherwise could I rewind time, but since that isn't an available option and I am too old now, it is what it is.

While it may not be obvious, I would also point out that you, by virtue of your character, have put me in the position of having to rethink a number of things regarding Islam. Sometimes example makes a far better argument than argument.

As for the reading, I probably won't be able to get to it too soon, but it is on the list. Unfortunately, as soon as I get well enough to get ambitious, I have a move ahead of me along with building a barn, running water lines for the automatic stock waterers, and numerous equipment repairs in addition to the day job and the alpacas who prefer that I remember their habits of eating regularly and receiving a small modicum of attention. That, and I still have to invest time and thought into my grandmother with dementia (speaking of which, I need to take a break to talk to my aunt about tomorrow's arrangements). Life is definitely keeping me busy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it takes to be a Christian. It's really the most beautiful and simplest things in the world. You aren't required to be perfect or divine or anything so impossible for us sinners. Love God with all of your heart and soul; recognize you sin and your sins -- then with a contrite heart, repent them, and seek forgiveness through the gift God gave us all when He sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins. Then, love your neighbor as you love yourself. How easy is that?

Well, with the understanding Christians come in many flavors as well, the tradition I was presented as a youth focused on correct beliefs. You could be a just person, but if you didn't believe Jesus was divine it was off to hell for you. What you *did* was not as important as what you *believed*.

On a side note, something I never did understand. Why did Jesus have to die? Could God not decide to forgive without the death of Jesus? I never really got that part.

I'll also forewarn you I'm not a literalist when it comes to holy texts. I don't believe in a literal flood covering the entire globe except for Noah and his boat, for example. Nor do I believe God is simply an invisible superman in the sky. I more agree with the "mystics" of early Christianity who said we can't say what God is because God is infinite and beyond our understanding and certainly beyond our language, we can only touch at his nature by saying what he is not.

 

[02roadster]

Ok. You know nothing about it but have made a negative determination about it. At least your honest in your ignorance. I'm completely ignorant of Shinto, personally, and don't care to learn about it. That's not close minded, that's just the realization you can't know everything and only have so much time to learn. The difference is I try not to form opinions on things I don't know anything about. Sometimes it's tough. Global warming is a tough one for me, I don't know enough to really understand it but I feel like I ought to.

I'm not here to convert anyone. Talk to Indiucky. Other than a bit of talking about Moses, as I brought his wife some rocks from Moses' trail in Jordan, I don't think we've ever once talked religion. I'm not even a real good example to anyone, but I try to make the truth known and folks can choose as they see fit.

It's sort of like if someone feeds you a cowpie and tells you it's chocolate, you really didn't get to decide if you like chocolate or not. That choice was stolen from you by false information. If you try real chocolate and just don't like chocolate, or are happier with vanilla, that's fine. The important thing is to choose a just life and to try to make the world a better place. Frankly, it's one of the main things that attracted to me to Islam is correct practices are more important than correct beliefs. Be just, be charitable, don't be a dick, and you're a-ok with me regardless.

BBI... I would be your Wing Man any day.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

BBI, you and your family would be welcome in my my home. I don't care what your religion is, what color you are. My only stipulation would be, you respect me and my culture. To me, I think that's where the disconnect is. If I chose to go to Jordan, because I thought that's the place I want to be, that's the culture I want my kids to be from, I'm going to assimilate to that culture. That does not seem to be the path most Muslims are taking, and my issue with it.
My admitted ignorance aside, tell me what I'm missing? There really seems to be a takeover playing out, of MY culture.
I try hard not to be a bigot, and be tolerant, but sometimes I feel we are being invaded with the intent to be erased.

Immigration within my lifetime, appears to have had little to do with wanting to come to the United States to adapt to the greatest way of life in the history of the planet, and more to do with taking it over, (Islam), or just exploiting it, (the southern border crossers). Does this fact make me a bigot.
I just want to preserve my culture, my heritage, no matter how ****ed up the progressives think it is. I have no desire to go somewhere and force my culture or religion on others, or change theirs into mine. I don't believe you do either.
I don't see Muslims coming to the west to adapt to it, I see Muslims coming to the west to conquer it, and history tends to agree. At least for now, until it gets rewritten.

I wouldn't want my son to take on the culture of Jordan. I'd want him to take the good parts of their culture, retain the good parts of our culture, and then live as an example. Honestly, there's a lot in Jordan you shouldn't emulate simply because it's the way things are done. I vastly prefer women's rights here vs. there for example. Some things are jacked up in both. Selfie sticks, for example.

I'm not real sure what takeover you're talking about. I'm not even real sure what "American culture" is, given that a hillbilly farmer, a inner city aspiring rapper, and a new york venture capitalist all have quite different cultures, and that whatever "American culture" is in amalgamation of what immigrants have brought with bits and pieces woven into the whole. I don't have a good answer for you because I'm not even real sure what the question is. Think of how much cultural change has occurred simply because of social media. Remember when the news was at 6 and your parents watched it again at 11 after you were in bed? How much different is our culture because of the need to fill multiple 24 hour news cycles? Eh, I'm getting off into the weeds.

I'm not here to force anyone to believe anything, but if the culture is one of hate or fear then I'll speak against it. This is not a one sided battle for me, I did the same thing in the ME. Often the things were small. Not all Americans are rich. Yes, we can have facial hair. Sometimes they were big. No, I don't think we're secretly ruled by a council of Jews.

Just like most of what Joe American knows about the ME is from war or from the media, almost everything Ahmed the Arab knows is from war, or even more perversely, from Hollywood. Seriously. Think about that the next time you watch a movie. That's what a large chunk of the world, ME and Asian subcontinent at very least, uses as their basis of an opinion of us. My wife really thought we shot each other in the streets over petty disputes. Ok, well, sometimes we do, but that it was really COMMON for it to happen. I had a cab driver who didn't believe Americans could wear facial hair, and it seems like the TV show Friends was his main source of information.

 

[scott delaney]

BBI....up to you to stay or go!..... as religion goes more atrocities have been committed by MY Catholic church then I care to admit. As far as you go, are you a productive person making American a better place to live?....I think so. Do you go on shooting sprees?....haven't heard of it. Ignorance does equal bliss. Some people are to brain washed to see other then there own agenda and will never accept different beliefs. Stand firm and Cary on. I would not have any problem with you, nor would most

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Well, with the understanding Christians come in many flavors as well, the tradition I was presented as a youth focused on correct beliefs. You could be a just person, but if you didn't believe Jesus was divine it was off to hell for you. What you *did* was not as important as what you *believed*.

On a side note, something I never did understand. Why did Jesus have to die? Could God not decide to forgive without the death of Jesus? I never really got that part.

I'll also forewarn you I'm not a literalist when it comes to holy texts. I don't believe in a literal flood covering the entire globe except for Noah and his boat, for example. Nor do I believe God is simply an invisible superman in the sky. I more agree with the "mystics" of early Christianity who said we can't say what God is because God is infinite and beyond our understanding and certainly beyond our language, we can only touch at his nature by saying what he is not.

Well, you do have to love God and accept Jesus as your savior to have ever lasting life. When you do, when you try to follow Jesus' teachings the things you do will tend to automatcially be good in God's eyes, I think that is the better way to view it. How you get from reading about Jesus to believing He is the son of God and your path to salvation, I don't know how explain it. I wish I did. If I did, I'd probably be a pastor rather than a sinner, sitting in a pew/bible study/Sunday school class, trying to do my best to follow Him.

I'd say your characterization of what God "is" is about right. He can be anything He desires to be. He just is. And the great part is He loves us all, the most devout and godly Christian, the agnostic, the ones a slave to their sins, even the ISIS guys and the mass murderers.

 

[printcraft]

It's been really heartening to see so many people reach out. I certainly don't want to leave, I want to make sure I was still welcome here and evaluate that vs the energy and stress expended here.

Why in the hell would you leave? I like your posts and input, I couldn't care less what religion you adhere to or none at all, nothing has changed on that so yeah, stay.

........More than a billion and a half people on our planet embrace Islam while rejecting Wahhabism, which is the source of "extremist Islam"..............

B I N G O

Brings me back to who is exporting this (cough) saudi arabia (cough) and the need to root out THAT devil in the details.

 

[eric001]

Be just, be charitable, don't be a dick, and you're a-ok with me regardless.

I just couldn't help but read through all the stuff in this thread...It's all BBI's fault because of his impressive expression of patience and eloquence while dealing with a subject obviously dear to his heart. BBI, I applaud you.

Of all the things you said so very well, the quote above seems perhaps the most fundamental to what religions--ALL religions--SHOULD be about, at least in my opinion. If each of us, regardless of whatever our type/form/whatever of religious belief (including none at all, of course) were focused on the simple concepts in the quote above instead of quibbling, arguing, fighting, and even killing over the differences between our religion and others' beliefs, this world would be almost unrecognizably a better place to live. Sadly, it seems that most if not all religions have those who would rather promote the negatives about others than trying to make the world around them a better place for all to live.

And for the record, I frankly couldn't care less what a person's religion, or race, or orientation or anything else is. I welcome those who will also treat me with the respect they'd like to have from me.

With all that in mind, I will also request that you not leave the forum, BBI...but for a selfish reason: there is obviously a great deal I could still learn from your continued presence here, and this place is better because you're an active part of it.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Global warming is a tough one for me, I don't know enough to really understand it but I feel like I ought to.

While this is not really part of the core conversation, it is a good opportunity to share an example of my thought process in sorting out things that I do not understand at the level of 'being able to do the job myself'. What I do know is that a political focus group has made much of the issue, with those leading the charge apparently using it as both a vehicle for the consolidation of political power and for multiplying wealth to themselves, with those doing the leading giving every indication that they themselves do not believe in it. Case in point, we have their High Priest, Al Gore, who at least up to the time of his divorce lived in a house that consumed nearly 20 times the energy of a typical local home while he was running all over creation on one of those evil private jets he insists needs to be eliminated pushing for things like 'cap and trade' which would be controlled through the carbon exchange he participated in founding and had a large financial stake in. I am also aware that such natural phenomenon as solar activity and volcanic eruptions have a huge effect on climate. I know as an historic fact that the 'global warming' of the 1300s was more intense than anything we have seen today. I know as an historic fact that climate has changed significantly as evidenced by the lack of glaciation as found in the Ice Age. I also know as a matter of historic fact that both of these happened in the absence of such 'evil' influences as coal-generated energy, automobiles, private jets, or 'excessively' large human populations. This leads me to conclude that global warming as a man-made phenomenon is 99% BS.

Just for fun, I could then throw in Obama, asinine new regulations, and cronyism as found in (but not limited to) Solyndra.

 

[Tandem160]

[/QUOTE]I'm not here to convert anyone.. It's sort of like if someone feeds you a cowpie and tells you it's chocolate, you really didn't get to decide if you like chocolate or not. That choice was stolen from you by false information. If you try real chocolate and just don't like chocolate, or are happier with vanilla, that's fine

.
You are implying my faith is a cowpie or vanilla and yours is chocolate, a subtle but, feeble attempt to elevate Islam above Christianity.
The true followers of Islam get and deserve the scrutiny they deserve. I try to have compassion for Muslims until I see women treated as third rate, uneducated citizens and being forced (and yes, forced, otherwise than CAN be subject to being BEATEN) to cover themselves in order too prevent them from getting raped because Allah knows it was her fault. Speaking of rape it's an acceptable form of punishment for women in Islam. And what is it with stoning, what a barbaric and medieval form of justice is that. I'm not going to mention pitching allegedly gay people off of roofs because I doubt they received a trial. These un-educated atrocities are happening in the now not hundreds of years ago when Christianity as a whole had its darker times. The omly compassion I see in Islam is when a wealthy family member can buy their way out of a beheading with a couple of goats and a camel.

 

[churchmouse]

Well, If BBI leaves I will still have to track him down and buy him another burger. I have done this and after the time spent and conversation this will happen again.

Same place to. Great burger.

Not read the entire thread. I do see some hurtful comments. I also see some fear and anger.

I would just ask that anyone taking part in this thread remain civil. Religion and its effects on us are a hot button topic. These can be discussed rationally so please do so.

 

[Lex Concord]

This place kills me.

Many of the arguments against Islam in general are the same ones that, when used against gun owners in general yield much wailing and gnashing of teeth on these very pages.

While I may fail, I strive for intellectual consistency. I have seen some of the folks I considered to be among the more logical people here resort to hyperbole (likely based in fear) in order to justify their stance... I have to keep strolling to the top to be sure I didn't stumble onto the MDA facebook page.

I'm sure I'll be discounted for referencing popular culture, but Lucas' Yoda spoke truth. Fear is the path to the dark side, and much of the generalized condemnation of Islam and Muslims here seems strongly rooted in fear.

 

[IndyDave1776]

While I may fail, I strive for intellectual consistency.

I'm sure I'll be discounted for referencing popular culture, but Lucas' Yoda spoke truth. Fear is the path to the dark side, and much of the generalized condemnation of Islam and Muslims here seems strongly rooted in fear.

Intellectual honesty is always at the top of my list of issues. This is a case where it can be very difficult when one considers history, the people now living and their behavior, and the fact that no umbrella identity adequately addresses everyone under it. Just for a good contrast, there is an army holding sway over a large section of the Middle East which would kill me in half a heartbeat for no offense aside from the fact I exist. On the other hand, I would not be distressed in any way to go to sleep in front of BBI. Both fall under the same umbrella, but are very different. The difficult questions are those of determining which stance is the standard in practice and which is the exception before we even get into addressing correct doctrine or the existence of a rift in interpretation.

I would also have to address the fact that the expectation that something that has happened in the past repetitively could well happen again is much different than harboring an irrational fear because someone else is 'different'.

One could also consider that the events before, during, and after the civil war in Lebanon do little to encourage one's confidence.

In the end, this is one of those cases in which, while intellectual honesty is important to me, if I am going to be in error, I prefer to err on the side of my head and shoulders maintaining their traditional close relationship rather than endangering that relationship in the name of a misplaced and potentially self-destructive sense of 'fairness'.

 

[Lex Concord]

Intellectual honesty is always at the top of my list of issues. This is a case where it can be very difficult when one considers history, the people now living and their behavior, and the fact that no umbrella identity adequately addresses everyone under it. Just for a good contrast, there is an army holding sway over a large section of the Middle East which would kill me in half a heartbeat for no offense aside from the fact I exist. On the other hand, I would not be distressed in any way to go to sleep in front of BBI. Both fall under the same umbrella, but are very different. The difficult questions are those of determining which stance is the standard in practice and which is the exception before we even get into addressing correct doctrine or the existence of a rift in interpretation.

I would also have to address the fact that the expectation that something that has happened in the past repetitively could well happen again is much different than harboring an irrational fear because someone else is 'different'.

One could also consider that the events before, during, and after the civil war in Lebanon do little to encourage one's confidence.

In the end, this is one of those cases in which, while intellectual honesty is important to me, if I am going to be in error, I prefer to err on the side of my head and shoulders maintaining their traditional close relationship rather than endangering that relationship in the name of a misplaced and potentially self-destructive sense of 'fairness'.

Cherry picking makes for good straw men.

I think it's pretty clear I was referring to generalizations. If you wish to defend those, feel free, but don't go on as if I'm blind to the dangers of ISIS just so you can paint my comments as irrational.

 

[yepthatsme]

BBI, I think all of us here do not want you to leave and we respect your knowledge and opinion. I would add that I think the media is a large factor when it comes to casting suspicion on Islam, not because the media casts Islam in a bad light, it's because they don't. The MSM keeps telling us that it is radicals which represent a very small percentage of Muslims creating all of the destruction and since many have come to mistrust the MSM, they accept the opposite view as the truth. Maybe I'm way off base, but I think that the MSM have indirectly promoted this sentiment due to the mistrust that they have created.

Anyway, I understand how you feel, but I know you are a tougher person than this. We all have our moments of weakness and this one happens to be yours. Take a break if needed, but don't give up. Your views are valued here.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I would not be distressed in any way to go to sleep in front of BBI.

Is there an award for creepiest complimenting? Like the Denny award for fun killing?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Well, If BBI leaves I will still have to track him down and buy him another burger. I have done this and after the time spent and conversation this will happen again.

Same place to. Great burger.

Not read the entire thread. I do see some hurtful comments. I also see some fear and anger.

I would just ask that anyone taking part in this thread remain civil. Religion and its effects on us are a hot button topic. These can be discussed rationally so please do so.

Thanks, 90% of what I post is mostly seeking cheeseburger rewards.

If you wear your Hello Kitty thing around your neck, I'm buying this time.

 

[churchmouse]

Thanks, 90% of what I post is mostly seeking cheeseburger rewards.

If you wear your Hello Kitty thing around your neck, I'm buying this time.

Its on then......where did I put that thing......

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not here to convert anyone.. It's sort of like if someone feeds you a cowpie and tells you it's chocolate, you really didn't get to decide if you like chocolate or not. That choice was stolen from you by false information. If you try real chocolate and just don't like chocolate, or are happier with vanilla, that's fine

.
You are implying my faith is a cowpie or vanilla and yours is chocolate, a subtle but, feeble attempt to elevate Islam above Christianity.
The true followers of Islam get and deserve the scrutiny they deserve. I try to have compassion for Muslims until I see women treated as third rate, uneducated citizens and being forced (and yes, forced, otherwise than CAN be subject to being BEATEN) to cover themselves in order too prevent them from getting raped because Allah knows it was her fault. Speaking of rape it's an acceptable form of punishment for women in Islam. And what is it with stoning, what a barbaric and medieval form of justice is that. I'm not going to mention pitching allegedly gay people off of roofs because I doubt they received a trial. These un-educated atrocities are happening in the now not hundreds of years ago when Christianity as a whole had its darker times. The omly compassion I see in Islam is when a wealthy family member can buy their way out of a beheading with a couple of goats and a camel.

If I wanted to elevate, I'd have used Moose Tracks. That's the King of Ice Creams.