147gr 9mm question

[noylj]

If fast powders are no more dangerous than slow powders, then Norma R-1 should be the universal handgun powder.
I see loading a 180gn bullet in .40S&W with Clays or TiteGroup to be hazardous, particularly at max loads, as any slight over-charge will produce a noticeable pressure spike. There just isn't the same charge weight difference on a "per ksi" basis as a slower powder.
Loading a 180gn bullet in .40S&w with Silhouette to max loads, will not produce pressure spikes due to a slight over-charge.
I have been loading .40S&W for quite a while and I KNOW that TiteGroup and Clays (or other fast powders) can easily produce pressure spikes and the loads I see many shooting in action pistol .40S&W Major are close to max loads. .40S&W is not a cartridge to trifle with (see my comments about case design/capacity and pressure), and the fastest powder I am happy with is AA5.
The powder/bullet companies know this and you will often find the Max load's pressure with a fast powder to be less than with a slow powder if they note that the fast powder throws pressure spikes above peak pressure.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I know you guys are discussing heavier bullet loads. I load using 115 grain FMJ bullets on top of 4.2 grains of TiteGroup. According to Hodgdon's load data, OAL of "1.100 and a max charge of 4.3 grains for 115 grain LRN. OAL of "1.125 and a max charge of 4.8 grains for 115 grain GDHP. I run my OAL longer then what's recommended for the charge though. Actually, my OAL is longer then what's recommended for the GDHP load.

 

[Broom_jm]

I know you guys are discussing heavier bullet loads. I load using 115 grain FMJ bullets on top of 4.2 grains of TiteGroup. According to Hodgdon's load data, OAL of "1.100 and a max charge of 4.3 grains for 115 grain LRN. OAL of "1.125 and a max charge of 4.8 grains for 115 grain GDHP. I run my OAL longer then what's recommended for the charge though. Actually, my OAL is longer then what's recommended for the GDHP load.

That 115gr HP GD (3994) load looks pretty safe, actually. QL, which is admittedly not as good at modeling straight-walled cases, predicts your 4.8 grains of Titegroup is creating 33400psi, at a standard cartridge OAL of 1.169". If you goofed and loaded it up to 5.0 grains, you'd get ~36319psi, which is a little over pressure.

However, if you were using the 147gr HP GD (4002), at the same OAL, this is what you'd see. At 3.7gr of Titegroup, you'd have the same 33400psi, but if you went up to 3.9gr it spikes to nearly 38000psi. Now, imagine for a moment that you got your 115gr load mixed up with your 147gr load, which is possible because of the low load density. If you put 4.8 grain of Titegroup under a 147gr bullet, the pressure spikes to over 53,000psi and you've got a situation on your hands! (NOTE: This is a hypothetical and very dangerous! Do not use this load!)

More importantly, nowhere in any of these data are you getting so much as a 70% fill rate. Your margin for error is lower with the lighter bullets, due to reduced inertia, but if you were using a slower-burning powder that filled the case better, those 2 tenth of a grain increases would be of less consequence. If you were to use Power Pistol for either bullet you'd be at 100% of capacity before being over-pressure. More importantly, if you tried to put your 115gr bullet charge under a 147 grain bullet, you'd have a heckuva time getting it to seat...the powder would probably push the bullet back out.

Now...I'm NOT saying Titegroup is unsafe to use in the 9mm. I'm saying I prefer a slower powder because it is less sensitive to charge weight, especially when someone is trying to create a certain power factor. I know a few guys who reload ammo and many of them prefer a powder that is at or slightly over capacity; mildly compressed. I like having that little bit of wiggle room...s'all I'm saying.

 

[slow1911s]

Folks, if you want sage advice on the 147/TG combo for USPSA Production and IDPA, this is not the forum. Look here for data from folks who have loaded and shot hundreds of thousands of this combo - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/ind...=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1

 

[Broom_jm]

Slow1911s,

That link doesn't seem to work. Apparently you have to be logged in to run a search? What exactly do the good folks on that website say about TG with 147 grain bullets?

 

[slow1911s]

Slow1911s,

That link doesn't seem to work. Apparently you have to be logged in to run a search? What exactly do the good folks on that website say about TG with 147 grain bullets?

It works, that's what. Join up and start reading. There is WAY too much there to begin to summarize. Here is the link to the entire 9mm/38 loading forum on that site instead of the 120+ threads that mention 147 gr bullets - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=72

If you shoot USPSA or IDPA, that is a site to sign up for and read. It is the authority.

 

[Broom_jm]

It works, that's what. Join up and start reading. There is WAY too much there to begin to summarize. Here is the link to the entire 9mm/38 loading forum on that site instead of the 120+ threads that mention 147 gr bullets - 9mm/38 Caliber - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

If you shoot USPSA or IDPA, that is a site to sign up for and read. It is the authority.

The only competitive shooting I've done was with rifles, and you could say it was pretty informal, at that.

I opened the forum you referenced and clicked on the "147gr MG Minor Load" link. In the first 17 posts there were 11 different powders mentioned, with Titegroup being one of them. Several guys suggested AA#7 for a new reloader because it takes up a greater percentage of the case volume, making it less likely to double charge. (Much like Power Pistol, as they have similar burn rates...)

I must be doing this internet forum thing all wrong. I went to the page you said and in addition to being even MORE confusing than this site, they reiterated what I said a dozen posts ago.

 

[jdhaines]

Folks, if you want sage advice on the 147/TG combo for USPSA Production and IDPA, this is not the forum. Look here for data from folks who have loaded and shot hundreds of thousands of this combo - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/ind...=search&section=search&do=search&fromsearch=1

BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!

When I was looking for my first load for 9mm, I went to Brian Enos and spent some days reading what the pros use. I work with a guy who shoots lots of competition and he shot the same load many of them do. I followed their advice after testing Universal Clays, W231, etc. I ended up on:

147gr plated Berrys or Xtreme (whichever is cheaper from TJ Conevera)
8lbs of titegroup
lots of mixed brass

My load is 147gr plated, 3.4gr of titegroup, loaded to 1.150 COAL, and cheap russian primers (wolf or tula). I chose 1.150 because when I measured 50 factory WWB rounds 1.150 was the average COAL of those rounds. No other reason. I chose 3.4gr because my buddy uses 3.2 for competition and when I tried 3.2 they felt wimpy. I tried 3.3, 3.4, 3.5, and 3.6. 3.4 felt very similar to my carry rounds so I went with that. I've shot over 1000 so far and haven't had any issues. If you read on Brian Enos...many believe 147gr bullets with fast burning titegroup powder to be the softest shooting 9mm round that will make their power factor. I don't shoot competitions so I don't care about power factor...but I love this load.

I also try to remember to use a little nitric acid to kill a couple primers in each 100rnd batch to be sure I get to practice malfunction drills!


PS: If you are going to try this, be sure to pick up a powder cop die, or my personal favorite the RCBS lockout die. 3.4gr of titegroup in a 9mm case can almost triple charge without spilling over. Single charge can barely be seen and a double charge isn't always easy to spot. Check your lockout die for single, squib (zero powder) and doubles to make sure it catches them before each reloading session. It saved me one time when I first started. The up side is you get almost 16,500 rounds from one 8lb keg!

 

[Hiker1911]

After that batch, go for 124 gr. for this caliber. You'll be glad you did.

 

[Broom_jm]

Well, JD...that was certainly an interesting and appropriate way to start your post.

Is that the driving thought behind using such a fast powder...economy? Using 3.5gr of Titegroup, you get ~2,000 rounds out of a pound of powder. Using AA#7 or Power Pistol, you get ~1000 rounds (~7gr) or ~1350 rounds (~5.2gr), respectively. If you paid $25 for that pound of powder, the Titegroup loads cost $.0125/ea, the AA#7 loads cost $.025/ea and the PP loads cost $.0185/ea. So, depending on how you look at it, you can shoot twice as many for the same cost, compared to AA#7, or 50% more than you could with PP. Looking at it another way, you are saving somewhere between 6 tenths of a penny to a penny and a fourth, per round.

I guess if saving tenths of a penny, or even a penny or two per round, matters than much to you, then by all means, proceed. I'll pay a little extra for the peace of mind I get from knowing I can NOT double charge a case. As far as using "feel" to tell how powerful a round is, or how much powder to use...that's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one.

 

[jdhaines]

Well, JD...that was certainly an interesting and appropriate way to start your post.

Is that the driving thought behind using such a fast powder...economy? Using 3.5gr of Titegroup, you get ~2,000 rounds out of a pound of powder. Using AA#7 or Power Pistol, you get ~1000 rounds (~7gr) or ~1350 rounds (~5.2gr), respectively. If you paid $25 for that pound of powder, the Titegroup loads cost $.0125/ea, the AA#7 loads cost $.025/ea and the PP loads cost $.0185/ea. So, depending on how you look at it, you can shoot twice as many for the same cost, compared to AA#7, or 50% more than you could with PP. Looking at it another way, you are saving somewhere between 6 tenths of a penny to a penny and a fourth, per round.

I guess if saving tenths of a penny, or even a penny or two per round, matters than much to you, then by all means, proceed. I'll pay a little extra for the peace of mind I get from knowing I can NOT double charge a case. As far as using "feel" to tell how powerful a round is, or how much powder to use...that's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one.

I was afraid you might miss this post...but glad you found it. I'm also glad you were able to set me straight. If you happen to have a little time, and aren't doing anything else...maybe take a look at where I mentioned the lockout die and testing it prior to every session so that you don't get double charges. Also,

Boom goes the dynamite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This game is going to get old quickly.

 

[Broom_jm]

JD, I've helped half a dozen folks get into reloading and I've loaded for no less than 30 different cartridges, to date. Frankly, pistols aren't my thing. We've got a few in the house but rifles are what I really care about. To be perfectly blunt, at this stage of the game, and if you are being genuine, I've forgotten more about reloading than you know.

And yet, despite not even owning a reloading manual, you are giving folks advice and supporting someone else's assertion, in a public forum. Where I come from, that's just plain irresponsible. No game...no obscure references to a game. Reloading isn't all that hard, but even the biggest knuckle-head out there knows it starts and ends with a freakin' manual. If you want to make light of that admonition...it's on you. I have no beef with you, per se, I'm just concerned about a fellow reloader getting in over his head. Given that you made a mistake on a THOUSAND cases, in another thread, I would say my concerns are justified. Objectively speaking...if a person makes a mistake on a thousand tiny explosives that he holds in his hands, wouldn't YOU be concerned?

Good luck to ya, and I mean that sincerely.

 

[slow1911s]

Why Titegroup or fast powders period for this combination (9/147)? I think a couple of things drive it. First, a lot of people use Titegroup to load major 40 S&W loads. They experimented with Titegroup and found they could use one powder for both major and minor PF/steel plate loads.

The other reason people use Titegroup and other fast powders with the 147s (or fast powders with heavy bullets relative to caliber, e.g. 40/180, 45/230) is felt recoil. Fast powder combined appropriately with heavy bullets have less felt recoil - your mileage may vary.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the use of a chronograph. In most ways, there is going to be one of the biggest indicators if you're putting a safe combo together. After that, it's about how that combo of powder and bullet work for you in your gun (feel, accuracy, cycling, etc.)

 

[ViperJock]

Idk if the OP is still interested but I have successfully loaded and shot 500 or so jacketed--not plated--147g bullets with 3.4g of Titegroup without issue. I can't remember the exact chrono now but they were fast enough to make PF for IDPA. Having said that, I now only shoot 124g as I like them better in my M&P.

 

[GSPBirdDog]

I have loaded many rounds with titegroup and 147gr x-treme bullets.....and 3.6gr was what i loaded

 

[slow1911s]

I have loaded many rounds with titegroup and 147gr x-treme bullets.....and 3.6gr was what i loaded

Please list an OAL.

 

[Broom_jm]

Please list an OAL.

Why would you like him to list an OAL for that charge weight?

 

[slow1911s]

Why would you like him to list an OAL for that charge weight?

Because a powder charge and a bullet weight alone are incomplete. Especially with the fast powder/heavy bullet combination.

 

[Broom_jm]

Because a powder charge and a bullet weight alone are incomplete. Especially with the fast powder/heavy bullet combination.

I concur. Some manuals list that particular load as MAX, when bullets are seated to 1.169", so I would be interested to hear what length GSPBirdDog is using for them.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

COAL matters depending on charge and bullet weight. If there is not enough space between the powder and bullet, the gases have no room to expand, which can cause over pressure. Faster burning powder will cause the gases to expand at a faster rate. According to Hodgdon's data for a 147 grain Hornady XTP bullet: COAL 1.100", starting load 3.2 grains, max load 3.6 grains. They list no data for a FMJ load.