North Korea attacks South Korea, South retaliates

[SemperFiUSMC]

I agree and I like to be smacked(had to say that) I guess to me it doesn't seem unreasonable JMHO

Which side of the story is right? i'll give up some personal freedom for safety or I don't think it will happen and don't touch my freedom? both sides of the argument are based on fear.

How about this side: If you reasonably think I am a threat, refuse to allow me to pass unless I am willing to X Y and Z.

They do this stupid thing because they are trying to find the balls (yes, pun intended) to say "Hey, you look like you could be a terrorist - we're going to check you out". Instead of singling out the hajji chanting prayers before a flight for enhanced security checks, it's easier to pull a 90 year old grandma out of line. She won't complain and will do as she's told because she has no fight left in her.

TSA goons are f****t p***y cowards. If they could come up with an original thought they would have devised a much better scheme than this. The only reason they can get away with it is because they operate under the color of law. I say put them back on welfare where they only have the opportunity to terrorize my wallet.

 

[88GT]

full invasion of NK. should have been done along time ago.

By whom? Under what pretense? I don't necessarily disagree, but this isn't a linear effect kind of action.

Some people forget that the world is more than just a video game, and "Other" countries are more than just ...

Then you should be speaking to the ones who initiate this crap, not the ones who respond.

Instead of shooting nukes like the 4th of July, how about we take out the core problems, their leadership. Begin brokering backdoor deals and infiltration, sort of a "rubber raft" or "landing craft" diplomacy. Maybe even eventual steps to a unified Korea?

Sure, the minute you figure out how to change a millennium of culture bred into a people, you let me know.

War is failed diplomacy. There is nothing diplomatic about it.

All diplomacy is a continuation of war by other means.-- Chou En-Lai

War and diplomacy are opposite sides of the same coin. And considering that diplomacy is the ultimate in lying and manipulating, I'm not so sure it's the more noble of the two.

So your wife will be raped and your son will be sodomized if you fly? using the term " sexually assaulted" is a bit over the top and very insulting to anyone who has actually been a real victim of assault.

I was sexually molested as a child and it doesn't bother me.

Considering the current state of the world, a pat down doesn't seem that unreasonable

Good thing for the rest of us, "unreasonable" has a legal definition tied to it. Otherwise, every government agent out there has to provide no more than his "reasonable" opinion that such a search was warranted.

What are the standards for searches and seizure of possessions, legally? And where exactly does a person standing in line to board a plane meet those standards?

 

[mrjarrell]

I am not sure that is exactly correct. Macarthur came up with the big left hook amphibious assault, that got us back to the 38TH parallel after that Truman though Macarthur was overreaching his authority and canned him. I don't know if we were ready to take on the Chinese right then but maybe it was possible. One can only speculate.

He did a good job at Inchon and up to the 38th, but after that, he was in over his head and started to go bonkers. He was going to nuke the peninsula and make US soldiers fight in a nuclear wasteland. Thankfully, Truman (who had seriously considered the use of nukes) got him out and better command ensued. The UN forces were outnumbered on the ground, once the Chinese got involved and the Soviets were actively flying against us in Mig Alley. A stalemate, such as came about, was the best we could have hoped for in the situation. There was never going to be a "victory" for the UN forces.

 

[rfontes]

im half part s. korean and worry about my relatives living in seoul. theres a part of me that say's enough is enough and its time to cross the line to smash that MF kim jong il, but theres my other half that worries about the civilians/relatives on both sides of the border during a full scale war, plus the nuclear arsenal at the hands of that lunatic kim il...

 

[smitty12b]

Wanting to take care of ourselves is spoiled? Wanting LESS government is spoiled? Wanting my rights intact is spoiled? Really??!

Do I really have to elaborate about all the intrusions on our liberty, rights, and privacy? I guess I do. Let's see. Several trillion dollars that I will have to be taxed to pay back. There are cameras hanging all over the place in public. The government has seized the authority to just tap my phone any time they feel like it. Americans are being forced to get x-rays and mammograms just to go on vacation. It has been ruled that police can plant a tracking device on our vehicles while they sit in our driveways and they can watch our every movement. There is a secret "no-fly" list that people can end up on for any arbitrary reason, and be viewed as a terror suspect for the rest of their lives and treated as such - no judge, no jury, no appeal. The Department of Homeland Security issues official reports that say returning veterans, NRA members, militia enthusiasts, and pro-lifers should all be watched as potential terrorists. We've got bills coming through congress to control the internet in order to protect us from "cyber-terror." We have government websites encouraging us to report our neighbors to the government if they act "suspicious" or make "fishy comments." And let's not forget the numerous Federal Emergency Management Agency internment camps that pepper the nation, sitting vacant, waiting for the so-called emergency to be filled up with U.S. Citizens.

Look, there is a fine line between protecting our liberty and taking our liberty. Total safety will never be achievable, and it doesn't even sound appealing. I want freedom, and less government. No, I don't want hundreds more little "inconveniences" that the Feds want to impose on me. Does that make me a spoiled brat or a patriot? Are you fighting for freedom, or for a cozy web of government [strike]control[/strike] protections?



Wow. There is a distinct difference between loving your country and loving your government. If I scream the loudest for freedom then I will take what you said as a compliment. There is nothing sad about it. I know that I don't have to be on the government payroll to love America. Somebody once said, "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." He didn't get famous for taking orders from King George.

Again, what rights have you lost? I voted and so did my wife, I carry a weapon in public, I can call the president a dip **** on a public forum without fear of arrest, I can burn the flag in protest(I never would) but I could, I can read any book I like, I can travel this country with out the need of papers to cross a state line, I can protest the government without fear, If I can afford it I can buy a home anywhere I like, I can worship any god I like, I can choose any career I like.
I sure feel free

 

[rambone]

Which side of the story is right? i'll give up some personal freedom for safety or I don't think it will happen and don't touch my freedom? both sides of the argument are based on fear.

Those that would give up essential liberties in order to obtain temporary security, deserve neither.

- Benjamin Franklin

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Wanting to take care of ourselves is spoiled? Wanting LESS government is spoiled? Wanting my rights intact is spoiled? Really??!

Do I really have to elaborate about all the intrusions on our liberty, rights, and privacy? I guess I do. Let's see. Several trillion dollars that I will have to be taxed to pay back. There are cameras hanging all over the place in public. The government has seized the authority to just tap my phone any time they feel like it. Americans are being forced to get x-rays and mammograms just to go on vacation. It has been ruled that police can plant a tracking device on our vehicles while they sit in our driveways and they can watch our every movement. There is a secret "no-fly" list that people can end up on for any arbitrary reason, and be viewed as a terror suspect for the rest of their lives and treated as such - no judge, no jury, no appeal. The Department of Homeland Security issues official reports that say returning veterans, NRA members, militia enthusiasts, and pro-lifers should all be watched as potential terrorists. We've got bills coming through congress to control the internet in order to protect us from "cyber-terror." We have government websites encouraging us to report our neighbors to the government if they act "suspicious" or make "fishy comments." And let's not forget the numerous Federal Emergency Management Agency internment camps that pepper the nation, sitting vacant, waiting for the so-called emergency to be filled up with U.S. Citizens.

Look, there is a fine line between protecting our liberty and taking our liberty. Total safety will never be achievable, and it doesn't even sound appealing. I want freedom, and less government. No, I don't want hundreds more little "inconveniences" that the Feds want to impose on me. Does that make me a spoiled brat or a patriot? Are you fighting for freedom, or for a cozy web of government [strike]control[/strike] protections?



Wow. There is a distinct difference between loving your country and loving your government. If I scream the loudest for freedom then I will take what you said as a compliment. There is nothing sad about it. I know that I don't have to be on the government payroll to love America. Somebody once said, "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." He didn't get famous for taking orders from King George.

How are things in Wonderland today?

 

[Disposable Heart]

Sure, the minute you figure out how to change a millennium of culture bred into a people, you let me know.

Given the corruption of their current leadership, that could be easier than expected. The leadership of NK used to be the world largest importer of Hennessy Cognac, while their people starved. You have to find the right person in their government, throw enough money at them and boom, you have a good means to begin changing (and via NK hands through "change" of their own).

I will agree though the "culture" of the "Great Leader" is a hard one to break. But to be honest, how much of the "devotion" that we see via THEIR propaganda machine is true? Every video we see from NK is one that has been screened by their propagandists. There was a show about some doctors going over there to fix some of the citizen's eyes. Their every move and video was edited and screened. The few glimpses of the TRUE NK was desolate, sorrow filled and opressed.

How much of that "culture" is real or what they want us to think?

 

[rambone]

How are things in Wonderland today?

Oh, you know, just another day on the forum. People thumping their chests, defending government intrusion, pushing for more war, glass parking lots, and the usual denigration of the ones who disagree with the government. S.S.D.D.

 

[Joe Williams]

So your wife will be raped and your son will be sodomized if you fly? using the term " sexually assaulted" is a bit over the top and very insulting to anyone who has actually been a real victim of assault. Maybe you should go to a victims support group and say that crap, I am sure that a real victim would appreciate it.


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Considering the current state of the world, a pat down doesn't seem that unreasonable

No, it's not over the top to call out the sexual asaults for what they are. IMHO, only a nation of cowards is so terrified that they would consider such actions to be part of a free society. There is nothing reasonable about suing citizens who decide not to allow government agents to put their hands down their pants, which is what the TSA is now doing, and no true American would say it is reasonable.

Calling what is being done a "pat down" is good propaganda, but it's certainly not the truth.

 

[rambone]

Again, what rights have you lost? I voted and so did my wife, I carry a weapon in public, I can call the president a dip **** on a public forum without fear of arrest, I can burn the flag in protest(I never would) but I could, I can read any book I like, I can travel this country with out the need of papers to cross a state line, I can protest the government without fear, If I can afford it I can buy a home anywhere I like, I can worship any god I like, I can choose any career I like.
I sure feel free

I just listed probably a dozen affronts to our 4th Amendment and our liberty. Does the 4th Amendment have to be officially removed from the constitution before you can acknowledge that our rights are being diminished?


None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

 

[Yamaha]

Again, what rights have you lost? I voted and so did my wife, I carry a weapon in public, I can call the president a dip **** on a public forum without fear of arrest, I can burn the flag in protest(I never would) but I could, I can read any book I like, I can travel this country with out the need of papers to cross a state line, I can protest the government without fear, If I can afford it I can buy a home anywhere I like, I can worship any god I like, I can choose any career I like.
I sure feel free

Those that would give up essential liberties in order to obtain temporary security, deserve neither.

- Benjamin Franklin

How are things in Wonderland today?

No, it's not over the top to call out the sexual asaults for what they are. IMHO, only a nation of cowards is so terrified that they would consider such actions to be part of a free society. There is nothing reasonable about suing citizens who decide not to allow government agents to put their hands down their pants, which is what the TSA is now doing, and no true American would say it is reasonable.

Calling what is being done a "pat down" is good propaganda, but it's certainly not the truth.

Can you guys open your own thread over this debate please? It'd be nice to read the topic without having to read all of this debate that is way off topic.....

 

[smitty12b]

Oh, you know, just another day on the forum. People thumping their chests, defending government intrusion, pushing for more war, glass parking lots, and the usual denigration of the ones who disagree with the government. S.S.D.D.

I in no way meant to denigrate you or your opinion and the concept of another war terrifies me as I have a lot to loose. I wish O'dumbass would hold to his word and start bringing our kids home now, right now. While you disagree with the warrior mentality of some you also need to respect it a little, they know the true cost of freedom from real world experience not a book or classroom.

 

[longbow]

Seems like it has calmed down with NK and SK, dancing with the stars is on tonight....

 

[88GT]

Given the corruption of their current leadership, that could be easier than expected. The leadership of NK used to be the world largest importer of Hennessy Cognac, while their people starved. You have to find the right person in their government, throw enough money at them and boom, you have a good means to begin changing (and via NK hands through "change" of their own).

And when someone else is willing to pay more? That's the problem with bought-and-paid-for revolutions. When money is the motivation there's never enough stick-to-it-iveness to sustain the movement for anything beyond the actual flow of money. They aren't changing for any principle other than their own selfish greed. And therefore no change would really ever take place since that's what's at the helm now.

I will agree though the "culture" of the "Great Leader" is a hard one to break. But to be honest, how much of the "devotion" that we see via THEIR propaganda machine is true? Every video we see from NK is one that has been screened by their propagandists. There was a show about some doctors going over there to fix some of the citizen's eyes. Their every move and video was edited and screened. The few glimpses of the TRUE NK was desolate, sorrow filled and opressed.

How much of that "culture" is real or what they want us to think?

It's not the culture of the "great leader" that's the problem. The "culture" I'm referring to is the one that does not have room in the collective mindset of the people for natural rights and the sovereignty of the individual. The eastern cultures have not once operated on a system in which the individual was supreme. There has always been a leader to whom each and every individual owed ultimate homage. They are not CITIZENS of their countries; they are SUBJECTS to their masters.

It's the same reason democracy will ultimately fail in Middle Eastern Muslim nations. There is no room in their culture for the individual. It is always about something "greater."

And the whole reason I point this out is that you can change the leadership's faces all you want. The people are not equipped to handle self-government as a whole. You'd simply create a vacuum that some other unscrupulous, corrupt bastard would rush to fill as he took advantage of the relative chaos that always comes with transitions of leadership in cultures of that sort (no organized succession).

 

[printcraft]

YouTube - National Geographic Inside Undercover In North Korea 1/5

What is at war with us is this deadly ideology.

Yick..... just watched all five parts.
It's been programed into them for decades...... I don't know how you overcome something like that.

Nursery rhymes about killing Americans.

Don't jay walk or we'll execute you and your entire extended family.

I don't have an answer.

 

[ghitch75]

pat downs= terrorists have gotten what they wanted........they have cost us billions in extra BS.....

 

[ghitch75]

Yick..... just watched all five parts.
It's been programed into them for decades...... I don't know how you overcome something like that.

Nursery rhymes about killing Americans.

Don't jay walk or we'll execute you and your entire extended family.

I don't have an answer.

yes there a twisted bunch

 

[a.bentonab]

Well glad we are all still here to discuss! The exchange of fire lasted about an hour apparently.

The South Korean president calls for enormous retaliation. Wonder what that means? The North is saying pretty much "we'll do it again if we think you'll retaliate." There is still a good chance this could end very badly for all.

Obama won't dedicate the U.S. to anything just yet besides condemning the NK attacks. In response to another poster, if he is still watching after all these pages, I do not believe that going to war is generally a good thing. I was just pointing out that many of those who voted for Obama did so so he would end the Iraq/Afghan wars (no matter how misguided that is/was), so to start another one would likely alienate those who put him in power.

The North has the worlds 4th largest army, behind only China, the US, and India.

 

[a.bentonab]

So the latest from South Korea, the previous defense minister resigned due in part to "a slow response" to the shelling incident. Also, the rules of engagement for the South's forces have changed. According to a BBC article, the South Korean government says

The cabinet had decided that under the old rules of engagement there was too much emphasis on preventing a military incident escalating into something worse, says our correspondent.

This leads me to presume that the new policy has LESS emphasis on escalating an engagement. Interesting.
BBC News - N Korea warns war drills take region to 'brink of war'

Also, I saw the first maps of exactly where Yeonpyeong island, Byangyeyong (sp) and the site of the sunken Cheonan ship were. To anyone who is not intimately familiar with the workings at the end of the Korean war, you would think that all of them would be well within North Korea. The NK's really got swindled on that "Northern Limit Line" that hugs their coast. I'd be mad about it too.

And despite many warnings from NK and now China, the US and SK continue their joint naval exercises. I can't see how that is a good decision. To retaliate or not is a different matter, but to try to goad the enemy into firing the (second, or third) first shot by provoking them seems like a poor policy.