147gr 9mm question

[Bflo]

After taking the reloading class from Andrew at Profire Arms I have been accumulating the necessary equipment to start reloading. I am starting out reloading 9mm, and I would like to develop a load for FNS and IDPA. I have purchased xtreme 147gr plated round nose bullets and titegroup powder. When I purchased the bullets I was told to use 3.6 gr of titegroup, as per the Hodgdon manual. However, that number is for FMJ bullets and I thought that data for lead bullets should be used when loading plated bullets. My Lyman manual just arrived and its lead data says to start at 2.5 gr with a max of 2.8 gr.

Do any of you use 147gr plated bullets with titegroup? If so, what do you suggest for OAL and powder amounts?


Thanks in advance!

 

[NIFT]

I am not fond of plated bullets, as I had a bad experience with Berry bullets in my Glock tumbling and keyholing badly. Couldn't hit a bull in the butt with a bass fiddle!

That is not to say, however, that whatever plated bullets you have won't work in your gun. Just be alert to see whether they work well or not.

Now, back to loads.
I use Titegroup in all my semi-auto loads (.40 and .45). Here's how to develop a load that will function in your gun without unnecessary wear and tear.

Load up two or three rounds each, with varying amounts of powder--0.2 grain increments is good. Load them down until you find where your gun will function and where it will jam--usually a stovepipe. Then, add about 0.3 grains, and you should have a great practice load.

Be alert to primers. I have found that magnum primers need about 1/2 grain less powder than non-magnum primers to get the same results. So, if you change primers or go from non-mag to mag primers or vice versa, repeat the above function tests to determine the best powder charge.

I'm sure Andrew stessed the importance of getting just the right amount of taper crimp.

Happy shootin' and keep yore powd'r dry!

 

[strongcrow]

ditto to the keyholing from the plated bullets. I have gone to Montana Gold jacketed. Much better and no keyholing.

 

[redwingshooter]

I have used plated bullets in my 9mm with pretty good success. I also love Titegroup and it is my go to powder for 9mm. I, however, perfer 124gr RN's and I've had good success with 4 gr, though others swear by 4.2gr. Typically it is suggested that you not go faster than 1200 fps with plated bullets, according to Berry's. Hodgdon's site says 3.6 gr of Titegroup will be pushing your 147gr pill at around 930 fps, so you should have no problem with that load if I had to guess. Hornady suggests a COAL of 1.165" while Speer suggests 1.13" COAL.

 

[Aszerigan]

I'm fond of plated bullets as well, and use them in the majority of my commercial pistol reloads. If you keep them under 1200fps, they're an economical (and very accurate) alternative to jacketed bullets.

 

[mospeada]

I haven't loaded 147g plated before, but I did take this advice from Berry's.

Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads.

 

[Broom_jm]

Let me preface this by saying I'm not an experienced pistol reloader. I've put together thousands of them, but only in about 5 different cartridges. I've not tried simple cast bullets, nor have I used plated bullets. Everything I've loaded has been jacketed because I don't want to deal with leading and I want to shoot my carry load for practice.

What I really wanted to mention is the idea of matching the burn rate of powder to the weight of bullet used in a given cartridge. This also correlates to fill rate in the case.

Titegroup is one of the fastest powders made and the 147gr bullet is the heaviest suitable in the 9mm. I don't feel that is a good combination, personally. I would use something fast with the 115gr bullets, something a little slower with the 124's and slower yet with the 147gr bullets. Or, just use a slower powder for 9mm loads, altogether. Using Titegroup, the case is only about 2/3's full, with any of these bullet weights, in the 9mm. Switching to Universal or Power Pistol allows you to achieve fill rates of 90% or better. Granted, you'll be using more powder to get there, but you also have a wider range of suitable charge weights and can get better velocity...something you might not actually want with the plated bullets.

I am shooting Power Pistol with 124gr jacketed bullets in several pistols and a 995TS carbine. I've been very happy with the results.

 

[Skip]

Seldom on a forum is there excellent advice given. For the most part, there is good advice and occasionally great advice, but seldom EXCELLENT advice.

The ABOVE post is EXCELLENT advice and information. If you couple the fast powder with a heavy bullet in an unsupported chamber, you are looking at a KABOOM for sure.

If you are shooting it in a Glock or a Browning High Power, I would seriously suggest a different powder. I had a KB once in a Browning High Power in 40S&W and let me tell you, not fun. I was using Clays and a 175gr LTC bullet. I was ignorant at the time about two things, Clays is another uber fast powder with bad results when you have a little bit of an increase in weight and the Browning's chamber issues.

I know that a 9mm is not a 40S&W but there have been a ton of KBs in 9mm Glocks and others with the same kind of chamber.

I am NOT bad mouthing anything. Not the powder, not the gun. I am simply stating that you have to know what all of the components that you are using, gun included, are going to contribute to your load.

I do run a 147gr bullet in a bunch of Glocks and I do it right up to 1000fps. I just would never use anything faster than Unique to attempt it. Same with the 40S&W. Nothing faster than Unique in any load.

Density is another issue that would keep me from using Titegroup in the 9mm. Even in that puny case, you may be able to fit quite an overload of that powder. Not for me.

My load is made of a Ranier plated flat nose bullet and a full charge of AA#7. Ranier bullets have a thinner plating than Berry's but crimping is the culprit that could cause tumbling. Too much and the plating is torn. Never had it happen and like Andrew, I have run them up to 1200fps in other calibers with no issue.

Honestly, there is another powder I would use rather than Titegroup in this application other than AA#7, well, 2 really. One is an OLD powder but still available, SR4756 and the other is Longshot. Lowest pressures for the highest velocities.

Hope this helps. The fact you asked shows you have a long and successful reloading career ahead of you. When in doubt, we all have to swallow our "man pride" and ask.

Good on ya!

 

[JDubb]

I have loaded with 147gr berry's RN 3.3grs of TG with COL 1.132 in a Xd with short chamber. my load data for uspsa for PF of 125...... my .02

 

[Skip]

The XD isn't unsupported either, JDub.

The problem comes when a super fast powder is used at maximum with a heavy bullet and part of the case is unsupported, such as is in a Glock. Again, I am not "dissing" Glocks. Have a bunch of them and like them a lot.

It is like knowing that vinegar and baking soda fizz. So, when you want fizz, you mix them together. If you don't want fizz, you keep them apart. Ya' just gotta know what youse dealing wit! Dat's all I is sayin'

 

[Broom_jm]

I'm not saying I know much of anything, but let me elaborate a little on why I feel Titegroup is a poor powder choice for the 9mm and 147gr bullets.

With very fast-burning powders, the difference between min and max charge is quite small, relatively speaking. The entire range is less than a full grain of powder, with 3 grains little enough that it might result in a squib load and 4 grains enough to possibly create an over-pressure situation. This is not troublesome, in and of itself, it's the fact that it leaves substantially less margin for error.

I know as well as the next guy that you'd better have your powder charge spot-on for loading small capacity pistol cases, but that is precisely why I want a powder that fills the case as close to 100% as possible. With Titegroup, under a heavy-for-caliber bullet, being over just a TENTH or two can be enough to cause excessive pressure. While this may not cause a KB, it will certainly be hard on the brass and the gun itself...plus, it just MIGHT send some metal flying!

By going with a slower powder, and one that fills the case more thoroughly, you give yourself just a wee bit more wiggle room; enough so that if your powder measure throws one a tenth over, you're still in a safe range of pressures. When a case is nearly full it is easy to look at the whole block and spot a problem; less so when you're using a fast powder that only fills 65% of the volume. In my head, it's even more critical if you're using a progressive and have no stage in the process where you check the powder level of each and every case. In other words, I'd definitely use a slower powder if I was cranking out 9mm cases with 147 grain bullets!

Perhaps it would be less long-winded to simply say: Fast powders create more pressure with each tenth of a grain of powder. Slower powders create less pressure for each tenth, so it takes more of them to create a given volume of gas, and it takes a little longer to do so, allowing the bullet to travel forward, creating room for the expansion of said gas. (This is not an unimportant detail when using a bullet with greater inertia.)

I like the notion of loads that are not so touchy about each tenth and allow me to be a tenth under, or over, without compromising the integrity of the load or creating an unsafe situation. IMHO, YMMV, n' all that.

 

[Bflo]

Thanks for the great advice, everyone!

 

[noylj]

If you are a newbie, you REALLY shouldn't start with a bullet that is too heavy for the cartridge or a powder that is too fast for the cartridge.
You are loading for IDPA, but that can still be a dangerous combination, particularly for a newbie.
I would have started off with a slower powder for safety. Silhouette would have been near perfect. However, since I assume you are NOT trying for 9mm Major, you should not be anywhere near a max load.
Load your bullet as a lead bullet.
Note: for the same money, you can buy real jacketed bullets from Montana Gold or Precision Delta. With Montana Gold, you will need to buy a case for best pricing. PD prices by the 1000, with a discount for any order of more than 6000 bullets.
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Note Power Factor COL
BBI 147 TiteGroup 2.9 878 Minor 129 1.135
Precision L-RNFP 147 TiteGroup 3.0 948 139 1.100
Clements L-RNFP 146 TiteGroup 3.4 930 136
L-RN 145 TiteGroup 3.4 1000 145
L-RN 145 TiteGroup 3.4 1001 145

 

[NIFT]

Hmmm....some how, it seems to me that saying a slower burning-rate powder makes a reloader safer is akin to claiming an external safety on a gun makes the handler better at following gun safety rules.

I agree that using a powder-charge combination that nearly fills the case does make a double charge difficult. However, a negligent or careless or ignorant person reloading ammunition will not be any less negligent-careless-ignorant by changing propellants.

 

[Broom_jm]

Hmmm....some how, it seems to me that saying a slower burning-rate powder makes a reloader safer is akin to claiming an external safety on a gun makes the handler better at following gun safety rules.

I agree that using a powder-charge combination that nearly fills the case does make a double charge difficult. However, a negligent or careless or ignorant person reloading ammunition will not be any less negligent-careless-ignorant by changing propellants.

You're right, Bob...external safeties serve no real purpose and we'd be better off if guns didn't have those silly things.

Choosing a powder/bullet combination that will tolerate being over or under by one or two TENTHS of a grain is just prudent reloading. Is that not something you teach in your reloading class? I'm starting to have a whole lot less respect for this NRA certification process...

 

[NIFT]

You're right, Bob...external safeties serve no real purpose and we'd be better off if guns didn't have those silly things.

Choosing a powder/bullet combination that will tolerate being over or under by one or two TENTHS of a grain is just prudent reloading. Is that not something you teach in your reloading class? I'm starting to have a whole lot less respect for this NRA certification process...

1. Please re-read my post. Your claim re: safeties is totally false.
2. I never load ammunition to the point where one-to-two tenths of a grain is "intolerable," and I never recommend so. If you are loading ammunition to the point where one-to-two tenths of a grain will either cause damage to the gun or cause it not to work, perphaps you should take a reloading class.

Again, re-read the post. When teaching reloading safety, I do not (and would not) recommend powder burning rates as a substitute for proper safety practices in reloading. The analogy was to using a gun's safety as a substitute for proper gun handling safety, not, as you falsely state, a claim that external safeties serve no purpose.

 

[BGDave]

Regarding NIFT rebuttal. This is getting to be a habit. You are correct as per usual. If loading for maximum power perhaps the reloader should be in the market for a bigger (read as .357 to .357 maximum) firearm.

 

[Broom_jm]

1. Please re-read my post. Your claim re: safeties is totally false.
2. I never load ammunition to the point where one-to-two tenths of a grain is "intolerable," and I never recommend so. If you are loading ammunition to the point where one-to-two tenths of a grain will either cause damage to the gun or cause it not to work, perphaps you should take a reloading class.

Again, re-read the post. When teaching reloading safety, I do not (and would not) recommend powder burning rates as a substitute for proper safety practices in reloading. The analogy was to using a gun's safety as a substitute for proper gun handling safety, not, as you falsely state, a claim that external safeties serve no purpose.

In your reloading class, do you routinely recommend the use of the fastest-burning powder under the heaviest commonly used bullet in a given cartridge? Or, do you suggest to new reloaders that they pick a mid-range to slower burning powder, specifically when loading heavy-for-caliber bullets?

 

[NIFT]

In your reloading class, do you routinely recommend the use of the fastest-burning powder under the heaviest commonly used bullet in a given cartridge? Or, do you suggest to new reloaders that they pick a mid-range to slower burning powder, specifically when loading heavy-for-caliber bullets?

Neither. I think you need to learn more about ammunition, primers, powder types and burning rates, and selecting bullets/loadings for specific applications.

 

[Broom_jm]

Neither. I think you need to learn more about ammunition, primers, powder types and burning rates, and selecting bullets/loadings for specific applications.

You mean I've been doing it wrong for 25 years? All those wildcat cartridges and 1/2 MOA groups and I need to learn more, huh? I think maybe that NRA cert. makes you think you know more than you really do.

At least you acknowledged that you don't teach your students to mix really fast powders with really heavy bullets, although that conflicts with your earlier post. Does it bug you that someone else on this sight knows what they're doing and dares to question your take on things? Most well-educated people are wise enough to allow for opinions other than their own, even if they don't agree with them.

Truth be told, you know I'm technically right on this one and you teach the same thing, apparently. I don't know why you try to pick apart comments I make but then again, you're the one telling folks to ignore the book numbers and determine seating depth for a given bullet by comparing it to another. Where, exactly, do you teach reloading classes? I'd like to steer my friends away from that kind of advice.