You hear the darndest things at the LGS

[philo]

BACKSTORY

So today I had to attend a meeting in Lebanon and on the way home I decided to look for some ammo. I stopped everywhere it was reasonable to stop between Lebanon and Bloomington looking for either .22lr or .380. Not much to be had. Dick's on west 86th street had a good supply of blazer .380 but I don't want aluminum. Just as well since the boxes weren't priced and the price wasn't in the computer.

I worked my way down to one of the more popular LGS's - big crowd but no luck with the ammo. I went next door to their annex (think of it as LGS II). They didn't have what I wanted either but they did have a good selection of some other calibers. 12 ga shotshells - don't need any more (really). 7.62x 51 - nah. 303 British - not my thing. 5.56 and .223 - that's more like it, but kind of spendy.

IMPORTANT PART

While I was browsing there was a group of young men in line at the register. The one with the ammo and the money overheard the clerk ask the previous customer for his ID and thought he couldn't buy his ammo since he had left his own ID at home. The clerk piped up and let him know the id was only necessary for a credit card transaction. Since the young man had cash that would be no problem. After the transaction was completed the clerk told the young man he really should carry his ID since he didn't look 18 (yet he had sold him ammo). Then the clerk expounded on the need to carry ID. He said that an officer could stop him at any time and demand to see an ID. If he was unable to produce the ID he would be jailed.

Did I mention that the clerk was pretty 'mouthy'? Well, I guess loud and animated might be a more polite way to put it.

After the customer and his friends left the store, the loud clerk and his friends (other clerks possibly, but on the wrong side of the counter) spent some time badmouthing the customer. "I should have thrown him out, he was high as a kite" is as close as I can come to a direct quote. I didn't notice that the customer was in that condition, but I wasn't selling him ammo. I know we have a law prohibiting providing guns to intoxicated people, but it must not apply to ammo.

But we're not done yet... Clerk's buddy(co-clerk?) walks to the door, looks out and says "they haven't left yet maybe he's having trouble keeping his doobie lit". Clerk says "maybe I should go out and 'badge' him and watch him **** himself" Hmmm the plot thickens. So we don't just have a bonehead LGS clerk making up laws and ignoring common sense, we have an off duty JBT / clerk making up laws and ignoring common sense.

 

[Gluemanz28]

I should be surprised, but sadly I'm not

 

[Bfish]

^Yeah just another stereotypical douche bag it would seem

 

[kml]

Disappointing but not surprised unfortunately.

Watched an equally disappointing event at a well thought of Indy gun store last week. Active duty military guy buying an AR. Fills out 4473 and provides his active duty ID, his LTCH, and copy of his orders. All he actually needs to provide is the ID and his orders ( 18 U.S.C. 922(t)(1)(C): Identification of Transferee | ATF ).

The first LGS guy isn't sure so he goes in back and gets LGS guy #2. #2 starts by asking if he has a DL, .mil guy says yes but from Florida. #2 then asks how long He's been in Indiana. .mil says 3 years. LGS#2 stand up straight up and states that "my other job is as a cop so let me switch hats" and proceeds to inform .mil that he has 60 days to get a DL after arriving in IN and that if he pulled him over he'd have "problems".

.mil politely tells LGS #2 that he's incorrect and has purchased many guns from dealers since being stationed here (and other states he's been stationed in) and also had no problem with the ID requirements to get his LTCH.

Many folks confuse domicile and residency in regards to military personnel - they do not have to get a new DL in every state they are sent to as they aren't residents of that state for those purposes. As an example in IN they don't have to pay the excise tax on vehicles they register here even if they have an IN DL. But the ATF has ruled (as per above) that they are a resident for purchasing purposes in their home state, their stationed-in state and the state they domicile in simultaneously.

The LGS/cop was wrong on all counts and made quite the scene, the .mil guy was frustrated by the fact that LGS guy wouldn't even look up the ATF ruling. #2 just kept stating it's federal law not my rule and followed it with "I deal with you people all the time".

LGS guy rips up 4473 and .mil leaves shaking his head, and the whole store that had been watching the train wreck goes back to their business.

I have no issue with cops, but if you're going to throw your badge out off duty at least have a clue as to what the hell you're talking about.... and if you're going to refuse to sell a firearm to a military member stating federal law you should get a basic idea of what the law actually says. The 20 word description on the 4473 ain't the whole law Binkie...

 

[ryknoll3]

NO, you must have this wrong. Read the other thread. The local gun store is the last bastion of knowledge, professionalism and helpfulness in the gun-owning community. You were really at a different store, weren't you?!?

 

[Fishersjohn48]

BACKSTORY

So today I had to attend a meeting in Lebanon and on the way home I decided to look for some ammo. I stopped everywhere it was reasonable to stop between Lebanon and Bloomington looking for either .22lr or .380. Not much to be had. Dick's on west 86th street had a good supply of blazer .380 but I don't want aluminum. Just as well since the boxes weren't priced and the price wasn't in the computer.

I worked my way down to one of the more popular LGS's - big crowd but no luck with the ammo. I went next door to their annex (think of it as LGS II). They didn't have what I wanted either but they did have a good selection of some other calibers. 12 ga shotshells - don't need any more (really). 7.62x 51 - nah. 303 British - not my thing. 5.56 and .223 - that's more like it, but kind of spendy.

IMPORTANT PART

While I was browsing there was a group of young men in line at the register. The one with the ammo and the money overheard the clerk ask the previous customer for his ID and thought he couldn't buy his ammo since he had left his own ID at home. The clerk piped up and let him know the id was only necessary for a credit card transaction. Since the young man had cash that would be no problem. After the transaction was completed the clerk told the young man he really should carry his ID since he didn't look 18 (yet he had sold him ammo). Then the clerk expounded on the need to carry ID. He said that an officer could stop him at any time and demand to see an ID. If he was unable to produce the ID he would be jailed.

Did I mention that the clerk was pretty 'mouthy'? Well, I guess loud and animated might be a more polite way to put it.

After the customer and his friends left the store, the loud clerk and his friends (other clerks possibly, but on the wrong side of the counter) spent some time badmouthing the customer. "I should have thrown him out, he was high as a kite" is as close as I can come to a direct quote. I didn't notice that the customer was in that condition, but I wasn't selling him ammo. I know we have a law prohibiting providing guns to intoxicated people, but it must not apply to ammo.

But we're not done yet... Clerk's buddy(co-clerk?) walks to the door, looks out and says "they haven't left yet maybe he's having trouble keeping his doobie lit". Clerk says "maybe I should go out and 'badge' him and watch him **** himself" Hmmm the plot thickens. So we don't just have a bonehead LGS clerk making up laws and ignoring common sense, we have an off duty JBT / clerk making up laws and ignoring common sense.

Okay, this one is pretty easy to figure out but why not go ahead and name them if you are going to call a store out?

Disappointing but not surprised unfortunately.

Watched an equally disappointing event at a well thought of Indy gun store last week. Active duty military guy buying an AR. Fills out 4473 and provides his active duty ID, his LTCH, and copy of his orders. All he actually needs to provide is the ID and his orders ( 18 U.S.C. 922(t)(1)(C): Identification of Transferee | ATF ).

The first LGS guy isn't sure so he goes in back and gets LGS guy #2. #2 starts by asking if he has a DL, .mil guy says yes but from Florida. #2 then asks how long He's been in Indiana. .mil says 3 years. LGS#2 stand up straight up and states that "my other job is as a cop so let me switch hats" and proceeds to inform .mil that he has 60 days to get a DL after arriving in IN and that if he pulled him over he'd have "problems".

.mil politely tells LGS #2 that he's incorrect and has purchased many guns from dealers since being stationed here (and other states he's been stationed in) and also had no problem with the ID requirements to get his LTCH.

Many folks confuse domicile and residency in regards to military personnel - they do not have to get a new DL in every state they are sent to as they aren't residents of that state for those purposes. As an example in IN they don't have to pay the excise tax on vehicles they register here even if they have an IN DL. But the ATF has ruled (as per above) that they are a resident for purchasing purposes in their home state, their stationed-in state and the state they domicile in simultaneously.

The LGS/cop was wrong on all counts and made quite the scene, the .mil guy was frustrated by the fact that LGS guy wouldn't even look up the ATF ruling. #2 just kept stating it's federal law not my rule and followed it with "I deal with you people all the time".

LGS guy rips up 4473 and .mil leaves shaking his head, and the whole store that had been watching the train wreck goes back to their business.

I have no issue with cops, but if you're going to throw your badge out off duty at least have a clue as to what the hell you're talking about.... and if you're going to refuse to sell a firearm to a military member stating federal law you should get a basic idea of what the law actually says. The 20 word description on the 4473 ain't the whole law Binkie...

This one, not so easy to figure out who it is but name em up guys. These places can't learn what's going on if it's not brought to their attention.

 

[Bowman78]

Well we know the first store in question must be bradis guns... The other ?????

 

[Trooper]

I have had similar problems with the local gun store (LGS). In most cases they are so worried that the ATF will come down on them that they take the safest course of action. Everything by the book. That way no chance of a violation. In one case I had to get the State Police gun folks involved to give an interpretation of the laws and rules (ISP called the LGS up). Frankly everyone is playing it safe. And have been for many years.

 

[kml]

You are right, if I'm going to call it out I should say where.....Beech Grove.
That said, the employee that helped me was very helpful.

A can understand the playing it safe but then just say store policy is "XYZ", sorry dude. When you state it as federal law and you're wrong, well...you're wrong. When you then decide to flip your badge to drive home your point - you're wrong and being a bit of a douche.

I had Dave's refuse to transfer a special order gun to me when it arrived over a similar I.D. issue a few months ago. Seeing as I'm almost retired and staying in IN, I went down the road to the BMV and got a state ID in all of 15 minutes so it worked out, but I was a little disappointed that I had to when the ATF is quite clear on the subject and even provides dealers a quick reference card to help them figure it out. http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdf
Page 6 covers the military exceptions for residency and ID.

I also find it interesting that Indiana has by far been the most painful state to buy guns in with a military ID for me. The exception is the big box stores, they actually use the ATF cheat sheet and figure it out themselves in about 5 minutes. I wonder if the difference is that the kid at the big box store isn't so convinced he knows everything that they will look for answers but the LGS folks are so sure they've seen it all before that there's no showing them anything different.

 

[LarryC]

I have had similar problems with the local gun store (LGS). In most cases they are so worried that the ATF will come down on them that they take the safest course of action. Everything by the book. That way no chance of a violation. In one case I had to get the State Police gun folks involved to give an interpretation of the laws and rules (ISP called the LGS up). Frankly everyone is playing it safe. And have been for many years.

Well if they really want to "play it safe", they should read and understand the Federal and State Gun laws. When I received my FFL-03 (C&R license), they sent a package including a manual titled "ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide and a CD or DVD of all current State law (for all 50 states). I sat down with the book and over the course of 2 ~ 3 days read through it and reviewed all the pertinent laws I would be dealing with (didn't go into depth with some sections such as Machine guns, destructive devices etc., as I will not be dealing with them), and keep this manual on hand for quick reference.
I am sure the FFL-01 (dealers) also have a copy of this manual. There is really no excuse for not reading this - if I had questions about any of the rules/laws, I would contact the ATF to clarify. I am quite sure they are more likely to violate the law if they don't read and understand them, then they are by "being careful" and denying legal citizens their rights. To me there is no excuse for running a business without knowing the laws pertaining to that business (and I am sure the ATF would agree) "ignorance of the law is no excuse"!

 

[JetGirl]

He said that an officer could stop him at any time and demand to see an ID. If he was unable to produce the ID he would be jailed.

And at that time, you said....??

 

[Jeepster48439]

You are right, if I'm going to call it out I should say where.....Beech Grove.
That said, the employee that helped me was very helpful.

It would also be helpful to know the name of the individual observed being a douche. The LGS owner may not know that it is happening. Additionally, it let's others of the buying public know that if they are waited on by that person, then anything out of the ordinary might not be dealt with in a reasonable manner.

 

[snowwalker]

Got to agree with jetgirl on this one, why not say something. Well at least no one tried to rip off someone like Fort Wayne Supply did me at Indy 1500.

 

[JetGirl]

Did I mention that the clerk was pretty 'mouthy'? Well, I guess loud and animated might be a more polite way to put it.

...the loud clerk and his friends (other clerks possibly, but on the wrong side of the counter) spent some time badmouthing the customer.

...Clerk says "maybe I should go out and 'badge' him and watch him **** himself"

It would also be helpful to know the name of the individual observed being a douche. The LGS owner may not know that it is happening. .

Philo needs to name him? Honestly, if that establishment has more than one loud mouthy badge-wielding employee who badmouths customers... they've got a huge problem! How many employees would this description fit?? (It really shouldn't fit any!)

 

[JetGirl]

Got to agree with jetgirl on this one

 

[Jeepster48439]

Philo needs to name him?

Yes I think he does. The employer is in a better position to address the issue if the offending employee is specifically identified. Takes the "guesswork" out of it on the employer's part.

It really shouldn't fit any!

I agree!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

At least the guy didn't try to taze anybody....

 

[JetGirl]

Yes I think he does. The employer is in a better position to address the issue if the offending employee is specifically identified. Takes the "guesswork" out of it on the employer's part.

I think you missed my point.

 

[kml]

It would also be helpful to know the name of the individual observed being a douche. The LGS owner may not know that it is happening. Additionally, it let's others of the buying public know that if they are waited on by that person, then anything out of the ordinary might not be dealt with in a reasonable manner.

Didn't get his name. They went and got him from what looked like a little office tucked behind the small counter where all the AR accessories are. For all I know he was the owner. If they're concerned about it I'm sure they could figure out who it was. Unless Beech Grove had more than 1 cop working last Wednesday afternoon tearing up 4473's for military folks wanting to buy an AR. If that's the case......

 

[Trooper]

Well if they really want to "play it safe", they should read and understand the Federal and State Gun laws. When I received my FFL-03 (C&R license), they sent a package including a manual titled "ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide and a CD or DVD of all current State law (for all 50 states). I sat down with the book and over the course of 2 ~ 3 days read through it and reviewed all the pertinent laws I would be dealing with (didn't go into depth with some sections such as Machine guns, destructive devices etc., as I will not be dealing with them), and keep this manual on hand for quick reference.
I am sure the FFL-01 (dealers) also have a copy of this manual. There is really no excuse for not reading this - if I had questions about any of the rules/laws, I would contact the ATF to clarify. I am quite sure they are more likely to violate the law if they don't read and understand them, then they are by "being careful" and denying legal citizens their rights. To me there is no excuse for running a business without knowing the laws pertaining to that business (and I am sure the ATF would agree) "ignorance of the law is no excuse"!

Easier to just say no than make an exception.