What's the best caliber?

[jeremy]

.45 acp is backed by history

So is the .22 short...

 

[cjacobs]

Even with trick bullets, the 9mm is way down on the list.

What list is that?

 

[Leo]

cjacobs, the list is of Police duty single shot perp stopping rounds. Every discharge of a Police service weapon on duty is documented. I think it is called the Marshall/Snow statistics.

 

[Zoub]

Confucius say, "Paragraph without punctuation like gun without bullets. Make no sense."

Ow! my eyes hurt from trying to read that!

He also say words are like bullets, you can not put them back in your mouth once they leave........................but you can edit posts to add punctuation afterwards!

The Nazis loved 9mm and killed Millions with it, hard to argue with that.

 

[Jack Ryan]

The Nazis loved 9mm and killed Millions with it, hard to argue with that.

They also were the most technilogically advanced country on the planet and thought they knew every thing too when they started that war.

Before that war was over they were wish'n those 9mm had been made of Hershey bars.

 

[! twitty]

I don't understand why people even argue over this... It is as much pointless banter as Glock vs XD or Mossberg 500 vs Remington 870. In the end, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS SHOT PLACEMENT! The only fact is that a well placed shot with a 22 is better than a miss with a bigger caliber. Haven't you seen/read about people killing bears with pellet rifles?

 

[jeremy]

I don't understand why people even argue over this... It is as much pointless banter as Glock vs XD or Mossberg 500 vs Remington 870. In the end, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS SHOT PLACEMENT! The only fact is that a well placed shot with a 22 is better than a miss with a bigger caliber. Haven't you seen/read about people killing bears with pellet rifles?

Shot placement is relative to what you are using.
A .22 for example has a very small window of damage.
However, a 155 has several meters to play with for shot placement...

 

[rugertoter]

Confucius say, "Paragraph without punctuation like gun without bullets. Make no sense."

Ow! my eyes hurt from trying to read that!

LOL!!!

 

[INyooper]

Shot placement is relative to what you are using.
A .22 for example has a very small window of damage.
However, a 155 has several meters to play with for shot placement...

Though coloring along the edges, this is something that is rarely brought up in tandem with the "shot placement is everything" argument. It's not everything. Really, it's not everything ...though, it makes for a nice mantra. If it truly was "everything," there would, truly be no debate and (all marketing aside) there would be only one choice. Frankly, a miss with a .45 is every bit as ineffective as a miss with an "improved" +P 9mm. Likewise, a miss with a 22, 25, 38, 40, .357, howitzer, or pea-shooter is every bit as bad as a miss with a 45. (Though, admittedly, a miss with a howitzer has to be slightly more embarrassing. )

Even more, a .45 (or 40, or .357), or any firearm on your hip, back, appendix, ankle, pocket, or under your hat is better than the 9mm you left at home. Certainly, smaller calibers are easier to carry ...but, if you began with the intention to carry, and you're not, caliber is only one of the possible reasons (as evidenced by numerous comments about the importance of good holsters and gun belts on this forum, for example). Were it not true, you'd read absolutely no reports of people regularly carrying full-sized pistols of any caliber. There are solutions to various issues and, the person intent on carrying when able will find the solution, and will carry.

BTW (and, FWIW), a grain of sand has the potential to have "knock down power" (another ambiguous misnomer phrase that gets tossed about in such discussions) were the wind blowing in the right direction and the planets aligned just so, I would imagine.

Honestly, I have no personal experience with firing a weapon in a self-defense situation; maybe some of you have, and can add real-life anecdotal data. It would be less likely that any person could contribute comparative data, however, I would imagine. Even so, how many stories (documented) of gun fights involving police have you read where dozens of shots were fired with a very low percentage actually hitting their target and/or having the desired effect? Then there's the "general information" shared about most gun fights only lasting a mere several shots (forget the actual number, but it's less than will be held in most revolvers).

Then again, there's data to suggest that, merely presenting a firearm is, more often than not, effective enough to convince a criminal not to follow through with their plans (and, I would imagine, they don't inquire to your choice of caliber before finding something else to do! ). Additionally, other data suggests that most crimes involving firearms do not involve the general public, rather, they are criminal vs criminal in nature.

All of these factors contribute to "muddy the waters," so to speak of caliber choice. I would imagine, however, that there is a reason why the larger calibers are still being produced today (and, improved just as the smaller calibers are, as noted by a previous poster). I would also wager to guess that such larger calibers have some sort of ballistic advantage to others. Certainly, there are pros and cons involved in any choice, and they need to be weighed by the end-user. Short of much more effective rifle calibers, the most effective pistol caliber just might be one you choose not to carry, in exchange for round count, lower recoil, smaller form factor, etc.

In the end (or other body part), no, I'd not want to be shot by your .22 ...or paint-ball gun, for that matter ...thankyouverymuch! But (and, yes, pardon the pun), not desiring either an entrance or exit wound is a poor argument for, or against, any caliber being "effective." It would, most certainly be painful, unpleasant, and regrettable ...but, truly, other calibers would likely be much more so, which does nothing to bolster the smaller caliber argument.

Owning, carrying, training with, and even discussing firearms with like-minded people isn't as much a one-dimensional single-event activity of caliber choice as much as it is a life-style. Heaven forbid anyone would purchase a firearm, a box of ammo, and "safely" store each on a shelf in their bedroom closet to "protect" themselves from some violent action that might happen to them.

Statistically, very few of us will ever have opportunity to discover personally which caliber is "best." To wager a guess, it's much more "statistically significant" that a person chooses to carry and train on a regular basis. In that light, any caliber you choose to carry and train with will be "the most effective."

Finally, for those of you who are wondering, all of my pistol calibers have the number "4" in them somewhere.

 

[kingnereli]

Is that extra 2/10 inch of expansion or 1" in penetration worth it if I could put three additional rounds on target in he same amout of time?

You shouldn't make such a broad statement. Even you can fire 16 rounds of whatever you carry in the time it takes me to empty a 13 round .45 magazine surely you're not saying you can fire 5 in the time it take me to do a double tap or 4 rounds every time I fire 1, are you. We're getting into tactics here but your point only helps you if you subscribe to the spray n' pray, mag dump during a gun fight line of thought. That's just a good way to miss.

How about relability of the weapons platform?

Do you have information suggesting that there is something about 10mm or 45acp that make them inherently less reliable cartridges? That's not been my experience nor have I ever heard that suggested.

Availability of ammunition?

Both cartridges I mentioned can be had if you want them. 45acp is just a trip to Wal-Mart away. 10mm can easily be found online and in most guns shops of decent size.

Cost?

10mm and 45acp can be reloaded quite affordably. Depending on the components you choose they can be loaded for around half what factory 9mm costs. That cost can be reduced further if you cast your own bullets.

Faster follow up shots?

How far are you willing to go with this. Since you listed this as one of your reasons for not carrying a more powerful caliber is it safe to assume that you carry a .22lr for self defense? I know I can shoot a .22 a lot faster than I can either .45 or 10mm. In fact, I'll bet a week's pay I can put three more rounds on target in the same amount of time. The point is that there is likely some threshold where you are unwilling to sacrifice wound effectiveness to shoot a little faster. That's the purpose of the Fives Drill I mentioned in my first posts. It offers a very nice threshold on how powerful you can go and still shoot effectively.

Also, the larger calibers are quite controllable. There is a lot more to recoil control than what projectile you are shooting.

These are not the latest Fads. I've researched this exhaustively too....

Really? In the age of mouse guns and small bullets you're willing to say it's always been this way. Even the exploding popularity of 9mm in this country is relatively recent. Ask your father or grandfather what they carried decades ago. Even firearms instructors used to teach big bullets in full size guns. Now it's tiny bullets and the "shoot 'em to the ground" tactic.(read: spray n' pray) Are you familiar with Jeff Cooper and Massaad Ayoob? They're considered the fathers of modern pistolcraft. You should look into their thoughts on the matter.

Op, start here, excellent read authored by the FBI, handgun wounding factors and effectivenss. Although dated, still quite relevent information: http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

Try this next: Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums

Your first link is a good one and supports my points perfectly. Your second one is questionable because it starts with the tired old picture of unknown origin and performed under unknown conditions.

 

[cjacobs]

Your first link is a good one and supports my points perfectly.

Your second one is questionable because it starts with the tired old picture of unknown origin and performed under unknown conditions.

Wow. Ok I give. You appearantly know vastly more than I can even acquire about termial ballistics and effectiveness. Sorry to have wasted your time.

And for whats its worth, the image in the second reference was taken by a gentleman by the name of Doug Carr. The topic author is Dr. Gary Roberts who happens to be a recognized expert in the field of wound trama and ballistics. Surely some one of your stature who has researched the topic exaustively would have at least heard of the IWBA, Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr Gary Roberts and SSA Hall.

 

[kingnereli]

Wow. Ok I give. You appearantly know vastly more than I can even acquire about termial ballistics and effectiveness. Sorry to have wasted your time.

And for whats its worth, the image in the second reference was taken by a gentleman by the name of Doug Carr. The topic author is Dr. Gary Roberts who happens to be a recognized expert in the field of wound trama and ballistics. Surely some one of your stature who has researched the topic exaustively would have at least heard of the IWBA, Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr Gary Roberts and SSA Hall.

I humbly accept your concession.

 

[Kingrat]

fmj vs fmj (like the military must use) i would take 45acp (wouldnt .50gi be even better?) hands down over 9mm for stopping power, with modern defense rounds and +p 9mm does just fine and gives you extra capacity

 

[MAJB Retired]

The largest caliber is the one you can shoot effectively!

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Find a caliber that is readily available, you can afford to practice with, and that you shoot accurately. Do not fall for the whole .45 is a man stopper internet hype BS. I personally prefer to carry a 9mm.

1. The ammo is cheaper, which means more range time for me.
2. The round is more controlable which means quicker follow up shots.
3. There is a huge market of high quality self defense loads.
4. More capacity in the same platform compared to larger calibers.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

.45 acp is the best. It's ugly and beautiful.

 

[Sylvain]

The best ammo is the one that fits your gun.
If your 9mm pistol is empty and you find a box of .45 ACP that's not gonna help.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

The best ammo is the one that fits your gun.
If your 9mm pistol is empty and you find a box of .45 ACP that's not gonna help.

This. Unless you have a Glock, I heard they eat EVERYTHING

 

[redpitbull44]

.460 Rowland

 

[ATM]

Dodge.