Waterboarding

[techres]

So you people mean to tell me you would rather watch 100 million Americans die needlessly in the name of morals instead of waterboarding a TERRORIST that would kill you given the chance who could stop mass destruction by simply waterboarding him to get the info from him?

And you call me paranoid?

Do you seriously think the CIA in all their infinite wisdom and skill is going to pick up the one guy who is wearing the shirt that says "Terrorist" and also has the words "I know where the bomb is!" tatooed on his forehead?

Do you think that 100 million will blow up next week or not, based on a single case of waterboarding?

Do you think that we are safe now only because of waterboarding?

Really? Our future hinges on that scenario?

I am less worried about potential situations that sound like an episode of 24 and more afraid of the potential situations that sound like a bad episode of cops (where they raid the wrong house or I guess waterboard the wrong guy).

My world view is filled with stressed people who make mistakes on the orders of underpaid and overworked bureaucrats at the behest of ignorant or corrupt politicians. My world view is not filled with showdowns between our best hero and their best super-villain.

 

[SavageEagle]

Ok 10ring, this is where I must disagree. While non-citizens are not guranteed the same rights as we are, the BoR are laid out as Rights Granted us by our Creator. These are rights granted to all men equally. Combatants or not.

Here inlies my own internal struggle with enemy combatants. While we must get the information from them, we must also realize they are human beings too and are, or should be, afforded the same rights as us.

On the other hand, evil do'ers will not be shown mercy in Heaven, why should we show them mercy here?

 

[10ring]

Just because the Supremes recently gave rights to non Americans in a split decision doesn't make my point of view null and void.

YMMV

 

[Windwalker]

+1 techres. If our Government would do it to "them", whomever them happen to be, then the Government would do it to our American Citizens just as quickly.

 

[SavageEagle]

I wasn't talking about the SCOTUS ruling, mind you. I was talking about what it says in the Constitution and the writings of our Founding Fathers. I don't mean to say your point is null and void either. I'm just saying they are rights granted by our Creator to all men and women. That's all.

 

[10ring]

+1 techres. If our Government would do it to "them", whomever them happen to be, then the Government would do it to our American Citizens just as quickly.

+ 1 one what?

Will someone, that has this point of view, please explain to me if even ONE innocent human life is spared by making someone "feel" like they are drowning is a bad thing? And again, let's keep in mind, ultimately this is an illusion that leaves the person ALIVE with all their appendages.

Insert your wife, kids, whatever into this equation.



Let's hear it.

 

[techres]

+ 1 one what?

Will someone, that has this point of view, please explain to me if even ONE innocent human life is spared by making someone "feel" like they are drowning is a bad thing?

Insert your wife, kids, whatever into this equation.



Let's hear it.

Once again - you assume I will insert my wife and my kids into the situation as bombing victims. I make no such assumption, but rather wonder if I will have to insert my kid into this situation but in a different role. 30 years from now, down at the local dark room, where men of the government that I handed down to him have him upside down and are waterboarding him into telling them the likely places that I might have buried some rifles.

That is the inserting of my family that I will do as a more likely reality than the one you are so terrified of.

 

[10ring]

And you assuming I'm talking about bombing victims?

Dude, you are on another planet...

Done here.

 

[10ring]

hrm... double post?

 

[Coach]

I wish that we would help more Islamic extremists gt to their 70 virgins faster. While they are up right and have their hands on a RPG or Ak-47, and not capture so many prisoners.

I am against water boarding, and I don't think it is very effective. Where is Bin Laden? Are we still looking for him?

With some of the serious hypothetical mentioned earlier in this thread I think the torture is going to happen like it or not. No need to endorse or support it. It will happen.

Techres is correct. We are giving up more in civil rights and civil liberties for security than any rational person wants to think about. People need to harden up and not be so scared.

 

[10ring]

I am against water boarding, and I don't think it is very effective. Where is Bin Laden? Are we still looking for him?

W-T-F does that have to do with water boarding??

 

[dburkhead]

War is wrong, even if we are forced into it.
We do fight for our own survivor during the war. We do take lives without hesitation, for our own lives are at stake, but does it make it right to kill? Our very brain is ingrained with the ideas of patriotism and nationalism, which enable us to do the things we might not enjoy doing, including maiming and even killing other human beings.
Two wrongs does not make it right!

Waterboarding might not be as serious as maiming or killing, but it is still wrong to subject a person to such duress for the sake of gathering information. Again, if you sanction it for selective objectives, you are taking the risk of it becoming common practice in the future. What is wrong is wrong and should not be condoned regardless of its perceived or real benefits.

Killing someone is wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right! Thus, I expect you to give up your right to armed self defense immediately.

Everything you claim about something like waterboarding, or even more serious tortures applies equally well there. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Well, guess what. Nobody said it was "right." But sometimes the choice isn't between good and bad. The choice is between bad and really, really atrocious.

 

[Coach]

W-T-F does that have to do with water boarding??

If water boarding was effective some information relating to those questions should have been found by now. Folks here act like waterboarding is netting bigtime results. The evidence of that is ... shakey. The fact that it violates much of what this nation is supposed to be about is certain. That was my point.

 

[dburkhead]

Ok 10ring, this is where I must disagree. While non-citizens are not guranteed the same rights as we are, the BoR are laid out as Rights Granted us by our Creator. These are rights granted to all men equally. Combatants or not.

If you can show me that enemy combatants in the War of 1812, when many of the folk who wrote the Bill of Rights were still around (including such luminaries as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, then President), were extended the full protection of the Bill of Rights, then this argument might be valid.

That's one of the reasons I pointed out uptopic the need to look at how ordinary POW's were treated in earlier wars. This whole gushy feeling/tender concern over prisoners is quite new. Maybe it's an improvement. Or maybe, by actually prolonging combat and leading to increased civilian casualties over time, it may actually be worse (as many "touchy-feeling" approaches to reality prove to be when looked at closely).

I'm not one to be so sanguine as to say it must be this way forever and ever amen. I am, however, sufficiently uncertain about how the world works to call into question claims of "never justified" whoever they may come from.

 

[dburkhead]

I am against water boarding, and I don't think it is very effective. Where is Bin Laden? Are we still looking for him?

"Not very effective" means "doesn't produce every answer we want immediately"? Funny thing is, all the other techniques that are supposed to be so effective also haven't turned him up either.

But I'll tell you why we haven't turned up Bin Laden: I am quite certain by this point that he already has his 72 virgins. And if there's any justice in the afterlife (if there is such a thing), they're all virgin male gorillas named "Bubba" suffering from priapism.

 

[Coach]

If you can show me that enemy combatants in the War of 1812, when many of the folk who wrote the Bill of Rights were still around (including such luminaries as Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, then President), were extended the full protection of the Bill of Rights, then this argument might be valid.

That's one of the reasons I pointed out uptopic the need to look at how ordinary POW's were treated in earlier wars. This whole gushy feeling/tender concern over prisoners is quite new. Maybe it's an improvement. Or maybe, by actually prolonging combat and leading to increased civilian casualties over time, it may actually be worse (as many "touchy-feeling" approaches to reality prove to be when looked at closely).

I'm not one to be so sanguine as to say it must be this way forever and ever amen. I am, however, sufficiently uncertain about how the world works to call into question claims of "never justified" whoever they may come from.

Why must the people in the war of 1812 have followed the Constitution in order for it to be valid? Thomas Jefferson did not feel he had the authority to buy the Louisiana Territory, but he did it anyway.

Sometimes a serious action might be/seem necessary such as your hypothetical back about page four. Do what needs to be done but do it quietly. I am sure it happens all the time and I am sure it has forever. But we don't need a policy that makes it official. We should try to do thing legal, humane and above board.

 

[jedi]

As much as my gut reaction is to do whatever it takes to get information from terrorists, sanctioning torture makes us no better than them.

There are many times I'm enraged at things I see and hear on the news, but deep down inside, after reflection, our civility is one of our greatest strengths. In fact, it is a defining characteristic of the United States of America.

Too many pages to read at this point so I'm going to come in mid-stream on this one. I'm of the mindset of "The only way to kill a killer is to become one". What exactly does that mean?

In simple terms it us or them. They (terrorist) are willing to die for their cause of killing all of us and the American way of life. They will do anything they can for their cause. The only way to stop such a monster is to become exaclty like that momster and worse. We are at war with these ideas and in war their is only 1 rule. SURVIVE.

You (as in a nation) do anything you can to survive. Kill, lie, betray, tourture, sell, trade, etc.. Yes its a harsh and grusome realisty and one that many of us will never have to experience or even think about.

The soccer mom that brings her kids in the SUV does not think twice about all the gas she is using nor about the sacrafaice that has been made by others for the freedom of allowing her to choose the SUV over say a Mini-Cooper. That is OK as in American we have those like the soccer mom that are navie to the harsh reality of the world outside the USA.

On the other end of the spectrum you have a dedicate group of individuals somewhere in the the bowels of government that have the heavy burden of continuing to allow the rest of American to have their choices like the soccer mom. Theirs is an ugly businesses for if Americans ever discovered them they would be frown upon and condemed for they use the same "evil" that we are trying to fight. Understand, however, that the only way to defeat the evil we fight is to fight just like them. That harsh reality however will never be accepted by the masses and that is OK. The masses do not need to know, nor will they understand, nor do they care so long as they have their choices.

As such this group of partiots must continue to work day and night to have America survive from all danger and in doing so they must use whatever means is needed. The civilized world can complain all they want and say the rules are not being followed and that is OK but we all know that terroriest just like criminals do not follow the rules and when survival is at stake the only rule is survival.

You can argue that the rules like the geniva convention (??SP??) should be followed and that all the nations follow those rules and that is great but what happens when our new enemy does not follow them? Do we continue to follow them? Or in terms that many here can understand.

The new law (aka rule) is no one can carry a handgun greater than .22 for personal defense since anything greater than .22 is too dangerous. So all of us (lawful citizens) obey the rule yet the criminal still carries his 9M or .45 and when you and him come face to face you realize you are way undergun. DAMB! Why are they not following the rules.

 

[dburkhead]

Why must the people in the war of 1812 have followed the Constitution in order for it to be valid? Thomas Jefferson did not feel he had the authority to buy the Louisiana Territory, but he did it anyway.

Sometimes a serious action might be/seem necessary such as your hypothetical back about page four. Do what needs to be done but do it quietly. I am sure it happens all the time and I am sure it has forever. But we don't need a policy that makes it official. We should try to do thing legal, humane and above board.

The question is: did the folk who actually wrote it think it means what SE (among others) thinks it means? That is, I think, very much a valid question. It is on the same order as when folk claim that the 2nd means something other than not only its clear words but what the folk who wrote it thought it meant.

 

[Coach]

The question is: did the folk who actually wrote it think it means what SE (among others) thinks it means? That is, I think, very much a valid question. It is on the same order as when folk claim that the 2nd means something other than not only its clear words but what the folk who wrote it thought it meant.

If they were willing to ignore what they thought it means, as TJ did in my example why does it matter what they thought it means?

 

[Coach]

"Not very effective" means "doesn't produce every answer we want immediately"? Funny thing is, all the other techniques that are supposed to be so effective also haven't turned him up either.

But I'll tell you why we haven't turned up Bin Laden: I am quite certain by this point that he already has his 72 virgins. And if there's any justice in the afterlife (if there is such a thing), they're all virgin male gorillas named "Bubba" suffering from priapism.

Effective should be accomplished in less than five years.

He may be dead. But I don't think so. If anyone we have in prison in Cuba once knew where he is they don't know now. I doubt we could force a "true" believer to tell us with any method. So what do we do with these prisoners?