USPSA Production to 15 rounds

[Bosshoss]

Well looks like the masses have spoke and Production will go to 15 rounds on 1-31-2024.

I don't shoot Production but I voted to leave it at 10 as some friends that actually do shoot it wanted it left alone.
IMO this will show a bump in activity for a while as some play around and see how 15 rounds changes the division and then drop back down to current levels.
This is the same thing that happened with Revolver when they changed it to 8 rounds. A small bump in people trying it but I know several Revo shooters that quit Revolver division or USPSA because of the change to 8 shots. Now we are back to about where it was although the Optic divisions have killed most of the Iron sight divisions anyway.

 

[Twangbanger]

Plastic Limited Minor / Poorman's Limited. Eh, should have seen it coming. I was ok with Prod at 10, but don't see it as a deal-breaker, because everybody was down-loading 17 round mags to 10 anyway. Meh, load 'em up. It's not going to cause anybody to have to buy a new gun, so I don't see a reason for the kind of melodramatic histrionics we saw here when Revolver went 8-minor. In light of the increasing proliferation of CO and PCC shooters, I see it as a potential benefit to smaller clubs who have very few remaining capacity-limited shooters. Stage designers won't have to worry about how the stage breaks down for Production, which was the majority of the remaining low-cap folks. Now if I was a Revo or SS shooter who wanted to continue hiding in my small pond, I'd really be butthurt . But seriously, I really foresee the objections coming from Single Stack and Revo shooters, because obviously they still care about how the stages break down for reload purposes. If an MD doesn't have many Revo or SS shooters at his club, I see stage designs possibly becoming less-favorable for low cap shooters.

 

[Bosshoss]

Plastic Limited Minor / Poorman's Limited. Eh, should have seen it coming. I was ok with Prod at 10, but don't see it as a deal-breaker, because everybody was down-loading 17 round mags to 10 anyway. Meh, load 'em up. It's not going to cause anybody to have to buy a new gun, so I don't see a reason for the kind of melodramatic histrionics we saw here when Revolver went 8-minor. In light of the increasing proliferation of CO and PCC shooters, I see it as a potential benefit to smaller clubs who have very few remaining capacity-limited shooters. Stage designers won't have to worry about how the stage breaks down for Production, which was the majority of the remaining low-cap folks. Now if I was a Revo or SS shooter who wanted to continue hiding in my small pond, I'd really be butthurt . But seriously, I really foresee the objections coming from Single Stack and Revo shooters, because obviously they still care about how the stages break down for reload purposes. If an MD doesn't have many Revo or SS shooters at his club, I see stage designs possibly becoming less-favorable for low cap shooters.

If match directors and stage designers follow the rules as they are currently written then most of the low capacity shooters I know won't complain about the stages.
That being said I hate stages with stupid tricks that have nothing to do with shooting.
As a match director and stage designer I also hate stages that 20% to 50% of the shooters zero the stage as a match director tries to "screw" the really good shooters or a certain division. BTW this never really works out.
Well I guess I just thread drifted this thread.

 

[Twangbanger]

If match directors and stage designers follow the rules as they are currently written then most of the low capacity shooters I know won't complain about the stages.
That being said I hate stages with stupid tricks that have nothing to do with shooting.
As a match director and stage designer I also hate stages that 20% to 50% of the shooters zero the stage as a match director tries to "screw" the really good shooters or a certain division. BTW this never really works out.
Well I guess I just thread drifted this thread.

Yeah, mostly I think MDs should leave the stage-gaming to the competitors. But it is kinda fun watching the PCC gals stand on tip-toe and shoot left-handed around a barrier

 

[longbeard]

I am a fan of 15 rounds. I would also like to see the production list removed to just "fits in box".. For ease of rules.
You can still do 10 in limited 10. Yes, limited minor was and still is an option. However, production is now a nice home for stock guns where people can spend some time, not wonder about the difference between major and minor scoring, and not need extended base pads and not be overwhelmed with stage planning all the reloads.

What I now like to see is carry optics move to 15 rounds.

• Production
• Carry Optics - production with a slide ride optic
• Limited
• Limited Optics - limited with a slide ride optic.

This would make actually sense. Currently, it makes no sense.

 

[indyblue]

How would this work in kalifornia with their 10-round limt?

 

[Twangbanger]

How would this work in kalifornia with their 10-round limt?

Production 10 - Next Oprah

 

[racegunz]

I am a fan of 15 rounds. I would also like to see the production list removed to just "fits in box".. For ease of rules.
You can still do 10 in limited 10. Yes, limited minor was and still is an option. However, production is now a nice home for stock guns where people can spend some time, not wonder about the difference between major and minor scoring, and not need extended base pads and not be overwhelmed with stage planning all the reloads.

What I now like to see is carry optics move to 15 rounds.

• Production
• Carry Optics - production with a slide ride optic
• Limited
• Limited Optics - limited with a slide ride optic.

This would make actually sense. Currently, it makes no sense.

Makes no sense sort of like .40 cal scored minor in limited optics?

 

[longbeard]

Makes no sense sort of like .40 cal scored minor in limited optics?

Ya, that's a tough one, and I feel for all the people caught in the transition. .40 is dying a quick death and I think major scoring along with it. I unloaded my last .40 limited gun a few moths ago before it was completely un-movable.

 

[sv40sw45]

Should have went with a magazine length rule!!!! Who is going to count how many shots a competitor shoots out of a facotry mag during a stage????

 

[Twangbanger]

Should have went with a magazine length rule!!!! Who is going to count how many shots a competitor shoots out of a facotry mag during a stage????

But the stendos drop out so nice...

 

[2-Alpha]

What I now like to see is carry optics move to 15 rounds.

• Production
• Carry Optics - production with a slide ride optic
• Limited
• Limited Optics - limited with a slide ride optic.

This would make actually sense. Currently, it makes no sense.

That’s how I see it, so it makes no sense that Prod and CO have different mag rules. IIRC, CO has the same mag rules as Lim, so I voted for Prod to go to that, but CO & Prod both at 15 would also be OK, and probably a bit easier and maybe more fair for the new shooters.

On the other hand, being a Production shooter that’s limited to 10 rounds because I shoot my compact 9mm carry gun instead of a full-size gun, I’m about to get less competitive. And so is anybody in a restricted state. But since I only shoot local club matches it only matters to me for classification, and for most classifiers it doesn’t actually matter.

I shot revolver back in the 90s, before the 7 & 8 round ones came out, and back then all the stages were built for 8-shot 1911s, so we did a lot of standing reloads in the middle of 8-shots arrays. Sometimes they’d throw us a bone and remove the mandatory reloads for revolvers in the WSB, so we’d only do 3 reloads on a 24-shot stage instead of 5 (vs. 2 for the 1911s). Seems like most stages now play nice for 12-16 rounds so I don’t think stages will change much.

 

[racegunz]

Ya, that's a tough one, and I feel for all the people caught in the transition. .40 is dying a quick death and I think major scoring along with it. I unloaded my last .40 limited gun a few moths ago before it was completely un-movable.

Major scoring changes the entire shooting strategy, for me anyway. I hope it doesn’t “go away” there needs to be some reason for power factors and a reward or penalty for what you choose. Else we just shoot rimfire like steel challenge. Imagine the new cool rimfire pistols that would come out!

 

[ECS686]

I have not shot USPSA for years around the time the revolver division went to 8 rounds. Mostly due to a ton of rule changes every time you turned around and it took 200 rounds to shoot a local match.

Hopefully the new rules work but for menu moss the simple 2 divisions and 2 power factors. I get adding a couple more but sometimes itbsewms like a lot.

And the. The infighting at some areas and the national level not sure I’m jumping back in just yet!

I do hope it succeeds as I know some great folks that shoot and are active in it.

 

[longbeard]

Major scoring changes the entire shooting strategy, for me anyway. I hope it doesn’t “go away” there needs to be some reason for power factors and a reward or penalty for what you choose. Else we just shoot rimfire like steel challenge. Imagine the new cool rimfire pistols that would come out!

Here's a question. Is major needed because the gun is harder to control so the scoring needs to be more forgiving or is it a strategy to reward less accurate shooting? Open division allows every mechanical advantage on the gun. It has always seemed backwards to me that there is major scoring as well. I will now run for cover for asking this question. FYI I got a package from Mongo this week where he wrote "minor is for ***s" on the inside of the box.

I say going away because I think we are seeing a trend where we regularly see minor winning HOA at local and large matches. .40 is definitely going away. I think LO was probably the death rattle. I blame technology. I see new gun owners with optics now as the larger vendors are selling guns with optics on them.

 

[racegunz]

Here's a question. Is major needed because the gun is harder to control so the scoring needs to be more forgiving or is it a strategy to reward less accurate shooting? Open division allows every mechanical advantage on the gun. It has always seemed backwards to me that there is major scoring as well. I will now run for cover for asking this question. FYI I got a package from Mongo this week where he wrote "minor is for ***s" on the inside of the box.

I say going away because I think we are seeing a trend where we regularly see minor winning HOA at local and large matches. .40 is definitely going away. I think LO was probably the death rattle. I blame technology. I see new gun owners with optics now as the larger vendors are selling guns with optics on them.

Legit question, my thoughts are that it’s not the gun it’s the power factor that decides scoring. My other .02 is I don’t care what gun is produced by the market that is what production division is for. Ever notice that you can’t run 9 bullets in a .40 cal single stack? It’s a bs rule so that “production” stays.45 or 9mm instead of what is the actual best equipment. I see no issues with running major pf in all divisions and let the chips fall.

 

[Trapper Jim]

It’s been a fun journey. 17th Century Thoughts.

Bullseye shooters freaked when we started drawing from holsters in early day combat matches.

Trap Shooters thought Skeet Shooters were weird. Sporting Clays evolved.

Pistol vs Revolver.

Minor vs Major.

Low cap vs High Cap.

IDPA vs USPSA.

Division Wars.

Bench rest vs Practical Rifle.


Even Combined scoring has haters.

Just like Religion and Politics, Shooting Bigotry is alive and well.


Grab lots of guns and play it all. More fun.

See you on the range,

Trapper

 

[2-Alpha]

Major/Minor used to be based only on power factor. The idea is that a “major” caliber (.45) will be more effective for less-than-centered hits than a “minor” caliber (9mm) so it scores more. The trade-off is more recoil, so generally it’s slower. And you can stuff more 9mm than .45s into a mag. Open guns with comps can negate the extra recoil, and if you can make major with a .355 bullet (like a .38 Super) you can have your extra rounds too.

.40 was supposed to be the best of both worlds—power like a .45 and more rounds like a 9mm. Until .40s started blowing up at major PFs. So they stopped allowing .40s to be major, except in Open. If you’re minor anyway, you might as well just go 9mm and have more rounds. Hence the death of .40s for USPSA.

I assume the “minor for all calibers” rule for some divisions is to simplify things for the newbies. IMHO it’s not necessary.

 

[Bosshoss]

Everyone shoots this sport for different reasons. Some like the process of breaking down stages and strategies as much as the actual shooting. Some just want to run around and shoot as fast as possible. Both and even other reasons are all fine and fun.
I don't see where 15 rounds really helps much as it only saves 1 reload during a basic 32 round stage. It also turns the first part of the stage into Virginia count with no extra rounds. It would make it better for extra rounds on steel and makeup shots at every position but then you have not saved any reloads and if you need those extra shots then you are probably screwed anyway with minor scoring the added time to make those shots.

As for CO going to 15 rounds I don't think we should screw up the most popular division by changing the rules after everyone has spent money on magazines and base pads. Didn't a bunch of people online complain about USPSA always changing the rules? Here we are changing Production to 15 and some wanting CO to go to 15 now.
I have complained about the changing rules many times and wish they would leave stuff alone.

The comment about hiding in a small division. Why do I have to switch divisions to let you kick my ass or visa versa?
I shoot what I want and have been the only Revolver shooter at many matches and while I wish more shot Revolver I do it because I like a challenge not to win. In fact I have shot many major matches with high entry fees and motels and travel expenses and food cost to shoot a division that wasn't even recognized because of not enough shooters. Expensive practice but still enjoyed shooting the stages and meeting new friends.
BTW I'll be hiding in Revolver division if you want some.

 

[racegunz]

Major/Minor used to be based only on power factor. The idea is that a “major” caliber (.45) will be more effective for less-than-centered hits than a “minor” caliber (9mm) so it scores more. The trade-off is more recoil, so generally it’s slower. And you can stuff more 9mm than .45s into a mag. Open guns with comps can negate the extra recoil, and if you can make major with a .355 bullet (like a .38 Super) you can have your extra rounds too.

.40 was supposed to be the best of both worlds—power like a .45 and more rounds like a 9mm. Until .40s started blowing up at major PFs. So they stopped allowing .40s to be major, except in Open. If you’re minor anyway, you might as well just go 9mm and have more rounds. Hence the death of .40s for USPSA.

I assume the “minor for all calibers” rule for some divisions is to simplify things for the newbies. IMHO it’s not necessary.

.40s never blew up making major in a supported chamber. I think you may be confusing it with 9mm trying to make major originally before they lowered the threshold and developed better powders. Oh and .40 is still and always has been scored as major in limited and limited 10 as long as it made the correct pf.