The war has started.

[IndyGunner]

I have a number of reasons, none of which are particularly relevant to the discussion other than the ones I have stated. I don't believe we should abandon allies, the world situation and our financial situation notwithstanding. I understand this may be an unpopular notion, but it is no more irrational than abandoning all our previous commitments to our allies so we can concentrate on spending ourselves out of existence here at home.

So the only reason is because we shouldnt "abandon allies"... which brings me to a few short questions...

1.) Just because we were "allies" in the past doesnt make that right, does it? If we were allies with germany before the nazis would you still say, well their our allies so...

2.) This one hit home for me, I have several friends who are... a drain on me, especially financially. These people take take take and never return the favor... and I am glad to do it for them, because they are my friends and I like seeing them happy... but there came (comes) a time when enough is enough and I cant be their daddy anymore. Im still friends with them, I will still help if they get in a car accident or their gf breaks up with them... but I'm not picking them up every 5 minutes to take them somewhere for their own business.... is this situation not any different, but on a grander scale?

3.) We have millions of people in the USA who have nothing, not just lacking a roof and a nice car, but food, water, etc. Should we continue to tell our own citizens, sorry, were still fighting the war on (whatever) thousands of miles away to people who dont give two ****s about us and will eventually be killed or kill in the end anyway.

 

[rambone]

The justification for us spending BILLIONS we don't have by saying "eh, even if we stopped it we would still be in the hole" is faulty logic at best.

Let me ask you this, if you were $1,000 over drawn on your bank account, would you go out and buy a new coffee maker for $50 even though in the grand scheme of things it's only a drop in the bucket?

It's that type of logic, or lack thereof, that has us in the financial mess we currently find ourselves in.

Awesome post. I'm so tired of the "drop in the bucket" argument. Its sad to see people doing these desperate logical backflips in order to keep propping up their favorite segment of Big Government.

I totally understand your isolationist philosophy but I disagree with it and I think you're wrong.

"Isolationism" : It does not mean what you think it means

I have a number of reasons, none of which are particularly relevant to the discussion other than the ones I have stated. I don't believe we should abandon allies, the world situation and our financial situation notwithstanding. I understand this may be an unpopular notion, but it is no more irrational than abandoning all our previous commitments to our allies so we can concentrate on spending ourselves out of existence here at home.

North American Volunteers in the Israeli Army

Flights from Indianapolis to Tel Aviv

 

[ZombieApocolypse]

So the only reason is because we shouldnt "abandon allies"... which brings me to a few short questions...

I think its ok to abandon allies if .... they are say .... Georgia, and Russia is invading. I guess it just matter which ally is getting attacked or is attacking? I have no idea how to sort through the BS to determine which allies are worth protecting

Flights from Indianapolis to Tel Aviv

im not going to talk anyone out of going, might not want to buy round trip tix though..... just sayin

 

[MilitaryArms]

What part of 'Israel is a nation of 7 million surrounded by 200 million enemies in a perpetual state of armed conflict who have vowed to exterminate them' do you not understand?

I totally understand your isolationist philosophy but I disagree with it and I think you're wrong.

You obviously don't know what an "isolationist" is.

Israel's issues with its neighbors is their problem, not ours. However, they out spend their "enemies" significantly. Their "enemies" are mostly thugs with AK's, RPG's and home made rockets. They haven't been attacked since the Yom Kippur War by their neighbors.

If they were good allies, they could do far more for us in return for all that we do for them. Actually, I don't want their help nor do we need it. We need to stop propping up Israel. Sure, this will throw the religious zealots into a tizzy, but back here in reality we gain absolutely nothing from our relationship with Israel. Conversely we lose quite a bit, both in terms of money, world standing and even our nuclear secrets that they're willing to sell to our enemies. If you're worried about our national security, we could improve it significantly simply by stopping our military support for a country that screws us regularly.

What part of that don't you understand?

 

[KG1]

Okay, everybody stay calm and don't panic at what i'm about to reveal here. Unless Ron Paul gets elected it looks like our military relationship with Israel isn't going to end any time soon.

In fact it looks like we may have some troops headed there come spring time for a joint missile defense drill.

We better not do it. This deployment may be seen as a further provocation to everyone in the region. Iran, Syria, the Palestinians , Hamas and Hezbollah will be really upset.

What I really think is going on is an excuse for us to amass troops in the area so we can invade Syria and maybe stomp some Palestinians while we're there.

Israel, US to hold largest ever missile defense exercise this spring; thousands of US soldiers will be deployed in Israel.

US commander visits Israel to finalize missile defense drill

 

[Blackhawk2001]

You obviously don't know what an "isolationist" is.

Israel's issues with its neighbors is their problem, not ours. However, they out spend their "enemies" significantly. Their "enemies" are mostly thugs with AK's, RPG's and home made rockets. They haven't been attacked since the Yom Kippur War by their neighbors.

If they were good allies, they could do far more for us in return for all that we do for them. Actually, I don't want their help nor do we need it. We need to stop propping up Israel. Sure, this will throw the religious zealots into a tizzy, but back here in reality we gain absolutely nothing from our relationship with Israel. Conversely we lose quite a bit, both in terms of money, world standing and even our nuclear secrets that they're willing to sell to our enemies. If you're worried about our national security, we could improve it significantly simply by stopping our military support for a country that screws us regularly.

What part of that don't you understand?

You are absolutely wrong. Israel gets bombarded by rockets fired from Lebanon and Gaza on an almost daily basis. Now that Egypt has been taken over by the Muslim Brotherhood, they have verbally abrogated the peace treaty they have with Israel as well.

As far as what Israel does for us, as EBG said upthread, neither you nor I gets to know what intelligence or black ops support we get from Israel. Like Russia and China, they are masters of HUMINT where we gave up that capability with the Carter Administration and haven't rebuilt it since. I am going to agree to disagree with all of you over this assertion of yours, since I don't think your man is going to win, nor do I think the situation will change - and I don't think the situation would change even if RP were elected, no matter what he says or believes right now, just as the current President was unable to keep the national security-related promises he made to his supporters when confronted with the realities of being President of the United States.

 

[cqcn88]

Okay, everybody stay calm and don't panic at what i'm about to reveal here. Unless Ron Paul gets elected it looks like our military relationship with Israel isn't going to end any time soon.

In fact it looks like we may have some troops headed there come spring time for a joint missile defense drill.

We better not do it. This deployment may be seen as a further provocation to everyone in the region. Iran, Syria, the Palestinians , Hamas and Hezbollah will be really upset.

What I really think is going on is an excuse for us to amass troops in the area so we can invade Syria and maybe stomp some Palestinians while we're there.



US commander visits Israel to finalize missile defense drill

We've done this same sort of exercise with quite a few of our allies. Japan, South Korea, and I believe Australia. It has always struck me as odd that certain countries get all bent out of shape when a missile defense system is introduced to their region. Russia and North Korea for example.

 

[ZombieApocolypse]

As far as what Israel does for us, as EBG said upthread, neither you nor I gets to know what intelligence or black ops support we get from Israel.

So you are saying there is a chance, they do not do ANYTHING for us? We can speculate about what they do all day, but in the end, nobody that wants to know, will know if Israel does anything.

 

[rambone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6bCOQ05814

 

[BumpShadow]

Hellooooo! Mcfly?! Can anyone say, Syria! get ready for a air force enforced, rebel force army, US funded, proxy war.

Welcome to American's new favorite way of making war!

 

[MilitaryArms]

You are absolutely wrong. Israel gets bombarded by rockets fired from Lebanon and Gaza on an almost daily basis. Now that Egypt has been taken over by the Muslim Brotherhood, they have verbally abrogated the peace treaty they have with Israel as well.

...and who is doing the rocket attacks and with what rockets?

Yup, you guessed it. The people I mentioned before - thugs with AKs, RPGs and home made rockets called "Qassams". These attacks are carried out by rebels, not states. What I said is accurate, Israel hasn't been attacked by its neighboring countries since Yom Kippur.

You're welcome to disagree with me all you like, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

[Guardsman89]

Then there is this... BBC News - US sells $30bn in F-15 jets to Saudi Arabia

Right, now you are on to it. We stand to make a bunch of money selling the tools of war to our allies in the Middle East. War has always been a money maker and a job creator.

 

[rambone]

Right, now you are on to it. We stand to make a bunch of money selling the tools of war to our allies in the Middle East. War has always been a money maker and a job creator.

The only people profiting from war are those in the Military-Industrial Complex. The American taxpayers are being looted. We are in debt up to our eyeballs. There is no prosperity for America coming from all these decades of wars.

Constant war is an excuse to keep a constant flow of taxdollars pumping into the elites' favorite corporations. Its a form of wealth redistribution. Take from you and me, give to the crony capitalists.

These same corporations lobby for the biggest warmongers they can find to be elected. The MIC funds their congressional campaigns, and the Congress keeps funding the wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY

 

[jeremy]

...and who is doing the rocket attacks and with what rockets?

Yup, you guessed it. The people I mentioned before - thugs with AKs, RPGs and home made rockets called "Qassams". These attacks are carried out by rebels, not states. What I said is accurate, Israel hasn't been attacked by its neighboring countries since Yom Kippur.

You're welcome to disagree with me all you like, but that doesn't change the facts.

*point of interest 1...
Qassam is the Rockets that are Manufactured and Distributed by Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades they are the Military Arm of Hamas. The Majority of Rockets fired into Israel are called Qassams by the Media, regardless of the the make of Rocket.

** point of Interest 2...
Hamas Charter declares what they are opposed to... The charter exhibits the influence of antisemitic conspiracy theories throughout, as evidenced by the explicit mention of the "The Protocols of the Elder of Zion," or statements labeling "Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs" as "sabotage groups ... behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds."

***point of Interest 3...

The Yom Kippur War was fought in 1973.

Since then Israel has Fought the Following Wars...

1978 South Lebanon Conflict...

1982 Lebanon War
South Lebanon Conflict 1982-2000
First Intifada 1987-1993
Second Intifada 2000-2005
2006 Lebanon War
Gaza War 2008-2009


Carry on...

 

[MilitaryArms]

How many of the wars fought since 1973 was Isreal the aggressor, meaning they invaded places like Lebenon? The actions were against terrorist groups in most cases. As I said, the states of Jordan, Egypt and Syria haven't attacked them since 1973.

Angry Arabs with guns and bombs will always be a threat to Isreal however there is a BIG difference between an angry terrorist and a state that has an army, air force and navy.

The point is, those little skirmishes where Israel steamrolls the terrorists is hardly a drain on their resources. They have ample resources to contribute to UN peace keeping efforts and even to our own military efforts (we fight in places other than the middle east, that's just the latest area of operations). The fact they don't contribute to either is an issue for me, and others, because they gladly receive our military and financial assistance yet never seem to do anything to return the favor. That's not a healthy alliance. It's not an alliance at all in my view. An alliance implies the relationship is mutually beneficial and the parties assist each other, not one party always assisting the other. That's military and financial charity.