The Universality of Those That Worship Statism?

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  • 88GT

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    That assumes I advocate using government to control others.

    But my questions is ... where does the right I (in theory) would be defending come from? Since when is there a right to an increasing (or at least stable) property value? Or any other return on investment?

    Warning: devil's advocate argument.

    The most fundamental liberty of man is the right to own property and control his own destiny. The two are inseparable. It stands to reason that any devaluation of his property through the actions of others (without his consent or participation) is a "taking" of his property and a violation of his liberty. What was once worth X is now worth X-Y because someone else's direct actions. Kirk's argument, as I understand it, is that such a taking is one of the protections that justifies the existence of government.

    In theory, it's no different than a neighbor breaking a window or rutting up the yard. Legally, we call it "harm" and it does not always have to be tangible.

    It has always been acceptable to control behavior for the protection of rights or the prevention of harm had that action been allowed to take place. Behavior control that forces people to pay for the bad choices of others is entirely different because it isn't protecting any rights (and in fact violates them).

    And finally, there's the argument that all local government is voluntarily participatory. Not unlike the HOA, the choice to live within a particular jurisdiction comes with the acceptance of all of its laws and ordinances.

    It's nice to wax eloquently about the full compliment of freedoms and little to no government control, but there's a fundamental contradiction that rears its ugly little head when you go this route: in the absence of said government, there is no means to control the behavior of others except what one can do through physical force or persuasion. Might makes right becomes the reality. So governments exist for the purpose of formalizing and centralizing the authority of the people, but in doing so we necessarily abdicate a subset of our rights to the government. However, self-government is an open door to the expansion of tyranny simply because of the way it operates.

    The happy medium is unattainable long term because people will always act in their own self interests and if given the power to do so, why would we expect anything different? Do we opt for anarchy and hope that those around us will live according to the same rules (which if they are libertarian are contrary to human nature at its core)? Or do we acknowledge the futility of humans to live together en masse without some form of formal governing body?

    I'd be happy as a clam for someone to come up with an answer, but I have yet to see one postulated that doesn't violate the laws of nature. And any solution that ignores human behavior is doomed to failure from the start.


    :twocents:
     

    jbombelli

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    Warning: devil's advocate argument.

    The most fundamental liberty of man is the right to own property and control his own destiny. The two are inseparable. It stands to reason that any devaluation of his property through the actions of others (without his consent or participation) is a "taking" of his property and a violation of his liberty. What was once worth X is now worth X-Y because someone else's direct actions. Kirk's argument, as I understand it, is that such a taking is one of the protections that justifies the existence of government.

    In theory, it's no different than a neighbor breaking a window or rutting up the yard. Legally, we call it "harm" and it does not always have to be tangible.

    It has always been acceptable to control behavior for the protection of rights or the prevention of harm had that action been allowed to take place. Behavior control that forces people to pay for the bad choices of others is entirely different because it isn't protecting any rights (and in fact violates them).

    And finally, there's the argument that all local government is voluntarily participatory. Not unlike the HOA, the choice to live within a particular jurisdiction comes with the acceptance of all of its laws and ordinances.

    It's nice to wax eloquently about the full compliment of freedoms and little to no government control, but there's a fundamental contradiction that rears its ugly little head when you go this route: in the absence of said government, there is no means to control the behavior of others except what one can do through physical force or persuasion. Might makes right becomes the reality. So governments exist for the purpose of formalizing and centralizing the authority of the people, but in doing so we necessarily abdicate a subset of our rights to the government. However, self-government is an open door to the expansion of tyranny simply because of the way it operates.

    The happy medium is unattainable long term because people will always act in their own self interests and if given the power to do so, why would we expect anything different? Do we opt for anarchy and hope that those around us will live according to the same rules (which if they are libertarian are contrary to human nature at its core)? Or do we acknowledge the futility of humans to live together en masse without some form of formal governing body?

    I'd be happy as a clam for someone to come up with an answer, but I have yet to see one postulated that doesn't violate the laws of nature. And any solution that ignores human behavior is doomed to failure from the start.


    :twocents:

    To me, the proper remedy is civil court, between the affected parties. Not legislative.

    Some around here are advocating using government to protect the market value of their investments. That is what this really comes down to, and I simply can't support the government being involved in that way.
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    That's exactly what you're trying to say the 5th Amendment does.

    No, I am not.

    Not to any particular property value.

    One of the sticks in my bundle is that I have a right to the value of my property a la the takings clause. If anyone, government or non-government actor, interferes with it I can take action against them. These actions are varied, but you can, and in fact the law requires (e.g. adverse possession, etc.), that you defend your property rights.

    To me, the proper remedy is civil court, between the affected parties. Not legislative.

    So you are OK with the government in the form of a court rather than a health inspector with a clipboard?

    Whether in a polyester shirt or a black robe, it is still the government being used to protect rights. This is the purpose of government.
     

    88GT

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    To me, the proper remedy is civil court, between the affected parties. Not legislative.

    I understand your point and why. But what is the difference between murder and a forceful taking of the property/property's value? IOW, why are some rights protected through criminal code and others left to the courts to solve?

    Some around here are advocating using government to protect the market value of their investments. That is what this really comes down to, and I simply can't support the government being involved in that way.

    So you don't agree that the private property's value is an inherent component of property ownership that requires protection? That only the physical integrity of the property is protectable?

    I'm not arguing one way or the other. Just fleshing out your opinion for the sake of discussion.
     

    jbombelli

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    No, I am not.



    One of the sticks in my bundle is that I have a right to the value of my property a la the takings clause. If anyone, government or non-government actor, interferes with it I can take action against them. These actions are varied, but you can, and in fact the law requires (e.g. adverse possession, etc.), that you defend your property rights.



    So you are OK with the government in the form of a court rather than a health inspector with a clipboard?

    Whether in a polyester shirt or a black robe, it is still the government being used to protect rights. This is the purpose of government.


    Yes. You have the right to the fair market value of your property if and when the government seizes it for public use. But you don't get to determine what that fair market value is, and you shouldn't be able to use the force of government to insure it against loss in value, which is ultimately what your argument is boiling down to, when you strip away all the fluff. You're using the force of government to protect the value of a private investment.

    If I harm you, sue me, prove your case, and prove your damages. That's what civil court is for.

    On the flip side, what if I build a nicer house than yours and increase the value of your property by my actions? Can I send you a bill for your realized increase in value? If not, why? Fair is fair, is it not?
     

    jbombelli

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    I understand your point and why. But what is the difference between murder and a forceful taking of the property/property's value? IOW, why are some rights protected through criminal code and others left to the courts to solve?



    So you don't agree that the private property's value is an inherent component of property ownership that requires protection? That only the physical integrity of the property is protectable?

    I'm not arguing one way or the other. Just fleshing out your opinion for the sake of discussion.

    Murder is tangible. It is specific. It is physical harm to another.

    Property value = intangible and subjective, based on market forces. If everybody in your neighborhood decided to cut and run, and sell their homes at far less than the current market value, and your home plummeted in value as a result, do you think you can sue them for selling their own homes at prices you don't like? I wish that was the case. I had neighbors selling their homes when the housing bubble burst at substantially less than market value, and I took a big hit to the value of MY home as a result. Who can I sue for that?
     

    rambone

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    All this talk about rights when it comes to property value ... I want to know how someone has a RIGHT to some particular property value. There are no guarantees in the world. Not when it comes to stocks, bonds, options, commodities or real estate, or anything else in which you put your money. I cannot remember any right to some sort of return on an investment.

    Where does this right come from?
    It comes from a general lack of understanding of natural rights. Here is an excerpt from a good article that I am reminded of.

    "Freedom From Freedom"
    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]There’s a basic quality of freedom. And Americans have forgotten it. Simply stated, freedom can only be to. It can’t be from.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]You can be free to eat, but you can’t be free from hunger. You can appear to be free from hunger, but in reality, freedom from hunger is a privilege bestowed in exchange for giving up another freedom.[/FONT]

    [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The natural state of freedom is always to. Governments can’t grant freedom to because freedom to is a natural right of human kind. We have natural rights and freedoms simply because we exist; not because governments dole them out.[/FONT]
    Some people here think that they have a "right" to be free from unsightly neighbors. They think that they have a right to be free from markets changing against their favor. And they think you are selfish if you don't like the collective's control over your property.

    If you want a fancy neighborhood with prissy neighbors who mow every saturday buy a house in an area with a home owners assosiation. Then everyone has agreed to a set of standards and actually signed a contract.
    Worth repeating. Let those who want collectivist uniformity band together and do it voluntarily.
     

    rambone

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    Irony

    From Kirk's article.


    "Of course, in their minds many of them will try to rationalize the abuse of government power by asserting that it is ultimately for the good of everyone."

    "Statists Believe Government Should Parent Society."

    "It is not enough for them to live life the way they see fit for themselves; all people must be “shown the light” for the betterment of the group as a whole."

    "Statists revel in bureaucracy and red tape."

    "You will almost always hear the Statist talk about the group, or the collective, over the individual, because the easiest way to dominate the citizenry is to erase the concept of unique individualism and condition them towards herd behavior."
     

    jbombelli

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    Yes, but why does that give it exceptional status over any of the other rights a person has? Fraud is criminal and it's not physical.

    Fraud is based on dishonesty and deception. It's a type of theft.

    The government doesn't guarantee the value of my gold and silver, or my equities, or any other investment I own, whose values can fluctuate based on the actions of others. Why should they guarantee my real estate?

    If someone builds a nice shopping center down the road from your home (assuming of course there wasn't one already), and sent you a bill for the increase in property value you realize from that, would you pay it? If not, why, when your increase in market value is a direct result of someone else's actions on their own land? If you wouldn't pay them for increasing your market value, why would you expect them to pay you for decreasing your property value by their actions on their own land?


    Now.. if you'll all excuse me, I have to sign off and go play drums for a few hours. I have a jam session tonight.
     
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    beararms1776

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    rambone

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    So you don't agree that the private property's value is an inherent component of property ownership that requires protection? That only the physical integrity of the property is protectable?

    Property ownership does not include the freedom from suffering unfavorable market conditions. If that were true, why should it not apply to vehicles, stocks, guns, or any other number of investments? Manipulating markets to the advantage of some, is not exactly a capitalist position.
     

    ATOMonkey

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    IMO, people are far more concerned with the government protecting their privileges, rather than their rights. However, to make a better argument, they come up with a round about way of defining a privilege as a right.

    In that way they use the heavy hand of government to protect their "rights," of which the list grows continuously.
     

    downzero

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    IMO, people are far more concerned with the government protecting their privileges, rather than their rights. However, to make a better argument, they come up with a round about way of defining a privilege as a right.

    In that way they use the heavy hand of government to protect their "rights," of which the list grows continuously.

    People who believe in both "positive" and "negative" rights don't make a distinction between the two. It doesn't help that we have laws that invent (positive) rights that are described in similar terms.

    Those of us who believe in negative rights (being freedom from restraint) as the primary focus of the term "rights" seem to not have a problem distinguishing.

    How do we teach people the difference?
     
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