The Fall of Rome

[SemperFiUSMC]

This is a response to a thread that was closed yesterday and was an exchange between ATF Consumer and I. I felt compelled to restart this portion of the thread because I didn't have an opportunity to respond before it was killed.

In it we had just discussed the fall of Rome, and with the implication there was a corollary between Rome and the US. I made the statement that Rome fell:

When they became "civilized", weak and lost their moral compass, the empire fell.

To which ATF Consumer responded:

Oh, I thought it had something to do with the quote in my signature.

which is

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." - Cicero - 55 BC

So there's the set up. Now my response.

I can see where you're confused. Let me walk through it for you.

First of all, it is easy to take words from any historic figure, remove them from their context, sprinkle in a few new words here and there, parse out a particular meaning, twist them into irrelevance, and then fashion them into a quote that supports a political position. It's called a sound bite. Cicero actually said "The arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and assistance to foreign hands should be curtailed, lest Rome fall." The rest of the words in your sig line was added, probably about 2100 years later, and are really nothing more than a sound bite.

That's why I don't quote other people unless I look up the quote first to make sure it is correct and within context. Jefferson is one of the most misquoted historical figures in US history. I sometimes find it ironic that anti-religionists rely on his writing of the separation of church and state (most believing those words appear in the Constitution) while small government advocates point to Jefferson as a role model. This a man who as President increased the size and scope of the federal government and its powers some five times while in office. But I digress.

Now, Cicero said what he actually said in 55BC. Rome did not fall until around 476. Even had Cicero made the statement attributed to him, I'm not sure that it had any relevance to Rome's fate seeing as it was over 500 years later that Rome fell.

Rome was a military power. The empire grew out of its ruthless use of that power. Rome also followed perhaps the greatest legacy of Alexander the Great, who allowed conquered peoples to continue their traditions and lifestyles as long as they paid tribute to Alexander.

Now I said Rome fell "When they became "civilized", weak and lost their moral compass". You may have misunderstood some of the words I used.

Civilized

Rome became civilized, wishing to live off the fat of the land without tending it.

Weak

The empire grew to a size so large it could not be sustained. The legions crumbled. Its citizens lost the will to fight to maintain the greatness of Rome. They were more interested in appeasement than superiority.

Moral Compass

I did not mean morals as in good or bad actions by today's standard, but morals as in the embodyment of what it meant to be Roman.

After several hundred years as the dominant empire and culture in the west, Rome crumbled because the people turned their back on the morals that made them a great empire.

There are similarities between the fall of Rome and the impending doom of the American way of life. Not for the reason you articulate.

 

[ATF Consumer]

That's one of the biggest problems with mods getting involved in these threads...rather than remove the bad posts and give those individuals infractions, they simply close the thread and hinder good conversation between the rest of us. -1 mods!

Happens quite often I'm sure.

I'd like to follow up with additional comment, but am limited on time...will post in a few hours.

 

[Que]

I would agree the loss of morals was a major contributing factor to the fall of Rome and America.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

Rome was a military power. The empire grew out of its ruthless use of that power. Rome also followed perhaps the greatest legacy of Alexander the Great, who allowed conquered peoples to continue their traditions and lifestyles as long as they paid tribute to Alexander.

Historically this occured because it's far easier to rule a people, and allow puppet control than it is to force them to change who and what they are.

Allow me to make an example.

The first Crusade victims were not middle easterners, it was Europeans. The Church tried to change them, but ultimately found it to be easier to not change, but rather adopt.

Which is why, culturally we can see differences in *that which shall not be spoken*, across the spectrum of civilizations.

I did not mean morals as in good or bad actions by today's standard, but morals as in the embodyment of what it meant to be Roman.

Ofcourse, but I wonder how

There are similarities between the fall of Rome and the impending doom of the American way of life. Not for the reason you articulate.

There are many simiarities, far more than what I would want to say publically.

But I'll say this, Americans wont fight. There are some willing, but no leaders; And those who step forward, will be forced to fall on they're proverbial swords due to American ignorance.

The best we can hope for is that when America balkenizes, that there will be some Nation/States who will retain the Founders desires, fiercely.

 

[308jake]

Anytime a country, person, business or whatever, strays off of the foundation it was built upon, it will surely fall. When you begin to compromise the integrity of the foundation, the resulting collapse is inevitable.