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  • ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    The role of Devil’s Advocate is an interesting position to occupy. While once considered an absolute necessity to ensuring the integrity of the process of advancing claims to canon, subjecting even popular claims to genuine, arduous examination and scrutiny, it has not only fallen out of favor, particularly by those desiring to expedite the advancement of their proposals to canon or those with an interest to maintain them as such, but in some cases, anyone attempting to assume that role can expect to be vilified, reviled and dismissed.

    Interestingly enough to explore further, the vilification of that role and the healthy discussion it serves to provide becomes most evident when the role is assumed against:

    1. Certain dearly held claims that people have come to emotionally identify with or rely upon for a satisfying sense of completion. These claims may be the most fiercely guarded and protected from any scrutiny.

    2. Extremely popular claims, frequently considered “settled” once a focused promotional campaign sways the majority to adoption. The common (but illogical) assumption must be that if it wasn’t true, most people wouldn’t believe it, making it safe to adopt and unnecessary to research, scrutinize or defend further.

    3. Of course, any proclaimed canon, no matter how incredible or incomplete its claims, despite a lack of supporting evidence, that is more comforting than the uncertainty of its absence or the looming knowledge that it was promoted and advanced so rigorously, adopted so eagerly, to avoid even considering the much more likely and natural explanations still available.

    I chose to take on the trifecta, the official canon of 9/11:


    https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...423008-15-years-deception;-9-11-reviewed.html


    I was better equipped to do so than anyone else on INGO and I obviously enjoy that sort of thing.

    I took on the claims of a miraculous sequence of unprecedented and unexplained systemic failures affording a handful of amateur enemy hijackers an unimaginable level of unstoppable successes in executing what can only be considered an absolutely ridiculous plan to unimaginable, unprecedented and unexplainably catastrophic ends

    …by suggesting that it was much more likely just easily explained tricks of the trade, that the evidence would certainly point to most of those and that is most likely why so much of it was destroyed, avoided or hidden.

    Easy.
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    I suggested that you could pretend I was playing devil’s advocate early on in post #91 (and later, again in #927, remember?), but most just couldn’t engage in it as a real exercise, they retreated to simple mockery (which I had a bit of fun with, since I was immune to it in my role and they were offering no actual resistance to my easy responses or position in doing so).

    I suggested that my beliefs didn’t matter, that your beliefs didn’t matter (and they don't in a reasoning exercise) but most couldn’t get past believing that somehow they just had to and used that to avoid the exercise, arguing against their own notions of my beliefs and how I must have adopted them directly from crazy people instead.

    Many of you should already have known from my history (even if I hadn't provided a link in post #859) that I’m naturally hardwired to play devil’s advocate, against everything, regardless of my beliefs – it’s who I am and what I do – that it's the process by which I continue to test my own beliefs, abandoning, replacing, refining and strengthening them as I go.

    Before I challenge anyone else with an unpopular position, I've challenged myself with it. If I could beat it, I'd assume most others could, too. If I couldn't, I want to see others give it their best shot and see if they ultimately have to resort to the same tactics I'd have to if it was my job to actually support the popular position.

    Your constant appeals to authority were like a running joke to me. Every individual that has ever played devil’s advocate against, bothered to research, examined and scrutinized the official canon of 9/11, regardless of their natural propensity or duty to do so, despite the reasonableness of doing so, despite their level of formal education, vocation or experience, they’ve all been labeled “truthers” to be vilified, reviled and dismissed.

    They aren’t deemed worthy of ever answering, so the points they bring up, the actual flaws and omissions they point out for us still remain after all these years.

    When the devil’s advocates' simple challenges haven’t or can’t be reasonably overcome, the miraculous claims he challenges cannot be advanced to canon, can they?

    If you needed your claim to advance anyway, you must somehow rid the process of such troublesome scrutineers that would impede their advancement and ultimate adoption as well as encouraging some means of keeping them away or at least dismissing them forever.
     

    ATM

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    As many here on INGO have proven, ‘never forget’ is still more strongly equated with ‘never question the official 9/11 claims’. Yes, even here, where skepticism of nearly every other government/media claim, even less incredible claims, is considered a normal and healthy exercise, the duty of an alert citizenry.

    That’s how they got away with the lies, with burying the truth, why we’ll never know the exact details of those events or exactly who managed the script or manipulated the investigations in the aftermath. They got many of you to accept and even enforce the secrecy of it all for them by deriding, avoiding and dismissing the once necessary position of devil’s advocate instead of engaging and embracing the role and the exercise.

    That’s a problem, a big one. Consider the ramifications of not questioning official or popular canon and not even tolerating others who dare to. You’re helping to pave and maintain the road to the next deception, the next agenda, the next crime, the next war, the next…

    I was happy to expose this problem, despite the cost. I did my best to engage as many as possible and draw as many readers to that thread as I could. It’s a topic that should never have been avoided this long. Some may claim that thread had ran its course, but I was still waiting for it to really get started. Mostly, it ended up feeble attempts at drowning me out with noise, but I did appreciate the few genuine efforts that were made and those who, even silently, actually considered the exercise intriguing if not simply entertaining.

    It was an honor to frustrate so many of you and generate a bit of content in the process. If you went back and read it again with different assumptions and a different perspective, you’d probably see quite a bit you missed as it was unfolding conversationally and your emotions were being manipulated. Maybe I’ll annotate and explain more about that aspect when I write my book about that thread. ;)
     

    ATM

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    This thread was only intended to be a teaser for those who remained completely oblivious to what was actually happening because they missed every single clue along the way. I'm sure many figured that part out – there were far more readers following along than posters – but, I doubt any of you could explain it all. Feel free, now that it's closed.

    It’s not crazy to question, to expose, to demand proper investigations – it’s crazy to claim that nobody should do these things or, in this case, that anyone was ever allowed to.

    No apologies, but that thread was hardly fair. I couldn’t lose (certainly not to any of the methods attempted or now that it’s over.) Even if you go back and try to pinpoint what it was about my demeanor that actually disgusted some of you, you’ll find nothing but me using everything at my disposal to expand and guide the conversations requested of me while invariably remaining imperturbable, staying civil and immovably on point beneath the dog pile I invited. Choices had consequences.

    I treated others as they wished to be treated and offered clean slates at several points for those who had done poorly or managed to soil theirs along the way. If you remember it differently but can’t actually show it when you look for it, welcome to my point, you are easily deceived. You are the product of your own presuppositions, even the ones planted there by others, including me. Examine those and challenge them yourself before others capitalize on them as I have, but for nefarious purposes.

    I wasn’t trying to sell you anything or cover anything up. I still don't claim to know exactly what all was covered up.

    I think it’s much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong.“ ~Richard Feynman

    Always question - the truth doesn't mind, indeed, it demands it.


    You have a few months to prepare and do your research before the 16 years of deception review. Maybe I'll come up with more secret handicaps to keep myself challenged. I do enjoy a challenge.

    Everyone has a clean slate with me again if they want it. :)

    For those who don't, just keep feeding me material to reply to. :):

    (You know, that was such a large part of the magic. I couldn't have done anything like that or drawn such attention to the real problem without each of those who participated in their own way to generate content worth reading in the process. I only attempted to steer it.)

    So, thanks, INGO. :thumbsup:
     
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    KellyinAvon

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    condensed version: ATM says he is the devil... or the Water Boy... one of those....
    Thanks, I was beginning to wonder if INGO has a requirement for an abstract for posts with multiple chapters.
     

    BugI02

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    Welcome back, ATM
    I mean that sincerely
    Please keep in mind The Urban Dictionary lists eight possible meanings for 'Devil's Advocate', of which this is the eighth.


    Urban Dictionary: devil's advocate

    8
    devils advocate
    someone who thinks they are helping others think of the opposite side of an argument or even of the weaknesses, who really just pisses everyone off because they are so untactful and confrontational it makes conversations less enjoyable, people less willing to expand their minds, and results in your social life declining because of their existence.
     

    femurphy77

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    Welcome back, ATM
    I mean that sincerely
    Please keep in mind The Urban Dictionary lists eight possible meanings for 'Devil's Advocate', of which this is the eighth.


    Urban Dictionary: devil's advocate



    8
    devils advocate
    someone who thinks they are helping others think of the opposite side of an argument or even of the weaknesses, who really just pisses everyone off because they are so untactful and confrontational it makes conversations less enjoyable, people less willing to expand their minds, and results in your social life declining because of their existence.


    :rockwoot:
     

    CindyE

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    ATM, are you married? My husband doesn't like it much when I play devil's advocate. It's just that sometimes we learn from trying to look at things differently. I don't like confrontation, but I do like seeing things in a different way. He sees it as arguing. I'm fine with debate, if it's done with respect, not name-calling and insults.
    Welcome back.
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    Hmmm, I would have sworn this was a gun forum and not a Rorschach Test. Thanks Mr. Obvious :)

    First, you're welcome.

    Second, you've obviously missed what INGO always was and still is for many.

    Guns just aren't incredibly interesting, challenging or inspiring, they're simple inanimate objects.

    Gun Owners are something altogether more fascinating.

    This isn't INGuns.com, it's much more than that. It's a community of diverse people with diverse styles, views, experiences, motivations, beliefs, skills, personalities, etc. It's magical in that it's the sum of the people who make it up, not any one particular object of common discussion.

    If you somehow missed that during your time here, it's never too late to start over.

    If that has just recently changed and I'm the one who missed it, I have no further purpose here. I can't challenge myself or anyone else by talking about guns.
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
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    Welcome back, ATM
    I mean that sincerely
    Please keep in mind The Urban Dictionary lists eight possible meanings for 'Devil's Advocate', of which this is the eighth.


    Urban Dictionary: devil's advocate

    Thank you.

    We all know how definitions are changed these days, which is why I referenced the original.

    These days, labels are much more important than meanings. For instance, I could post a definition of "truther" which hardly matches the assumed definition, i.e. the real power of the label:

    https://www.azdictionary.com/urban-dictionary/definition/Truther

    Truther definition - is the one whom denies the official explanation provided for September 11, 2001. They feature professional architects and engineers, experts, alongside scholars, firefighters, pilots, veterans, doctors, the victims people and individuals from countless other parts of society. Individuals who reject the state description live in a paradigm that views the mainstream media as an instrument of manipulation for the public.
     
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