SIG P320

[Lpherr]

I was just reading through a post about carrying on an empty chamber. I can't find it now, but...

We purchased a P320, and have had it to the range. It seems to be accurate for us both, not
overly heavy, minimal recoil, and a smooth trigger. We really like it, but after purchasing it, we've read several articles, and watched many videos,
about how it discharges without a trigger pull. There have been several Law Enforcement officers, along with citizens that this has happened to.
Most take the round in their leg. SIG has retooled the slide, and claims it can't happen, although, there have been people with the upgraded slide,
have it happen.
I do not feel safe keeping a round chambered, even sitting in the safe, so it isn't ever going to be a carry weapon.
Has anyone here, had personal experience with this happening? Would you still keep it chambered after the claims?
Share your thoughts, if you care to.

 

[cbhausen]

To my understanding this was a dropped gun issue, never have I heard of a P320 discharging on its own. I had one for awhile before the “voluntary upgrade” aka non-recall. Enjoyed shooting and carrying it a lot but eventually went back to Glocks, more for the ecosystem surrounding them than anything else.

 

[Lpherr]

Here is one article.

Sig Sauer Faces $10 Million Lawsuit over P320 Pistol After Alleged Accidental Discharge Wounds Federal Agent

A Marine vet was issued a P320 as his service weapon to use as an officer for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

www.military.com

I did see there was a problem with the drop discharge also, but I don't expect to drop a firearm, even though it could happen.

 

[Joegrz308]

Been shooting and carrying several P320’s for both competition and concealed carry without issue for years. Just keep your finger out of the trigger guard until ready to shoot and you’ll be fine. Also, make sure your weapon is not the old style trigger and subject to the recall.

I can’t help but think the victims of poor gun handling are trying to blame Sig.

 

[92FSTech]

The only repeatable safety issue that has been proven to be a problem with the P320 design, to my knowledge, was the drop safety issue that resulted in the voluntary upgrade program. Essentially what was happening was that if the gun was dropped from above a certain height, at a very specific angle onto the back of the slide, there was enough force to cause the trigger to actuate under it's own inertia, causing the gun to fire. This problem was corrected as part of the voluntary upgrade (a slimmer, lighter trigger was part of this fix, and is clearly evident in the upgraded guns), and they also added a disconnector to prevent the gun from being able to fire out of battery at the same time (the original design does not have this).

While there have been claims of the upgraded guns firing on their own, I have yet to see any of those claims backed up with evidence. If there was a problem with the design of the gun that allowed this to happen, then it would be repeatable (like the original drop safety issue was)...but it's not. Nobody to date has been able to demonstrate mechanically how the post-upgrade guns are discharging without the trigger being pulled. The only explanation I can draw from this is that somehow these folks are pulling the trigger...either with their finger, or some other object, and that is what is discharging the gun.

Then the lawyers get involved, point to the previous issues with the pre-upgrade guns, and yammer on about how the P320 is a dangerous design that goes off by itself. This isn't analysis based on facts...it's an emotional appeal with the goal of making money for themselves and (a little bit) for their client. Also, just because a cop shot himself with his own gun doesn't mean there's a problem with the gun...cops do stupid stuff all the time. I could show you holes in police stations, sheriff's departments, and even at the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy, caused by cops mishandling guns.

All that said...the P320 does have a very light trigger, and a pre-cocked striker, so mechanically it doesn't take much for the gun to fire. This can be good or bad depending upon how you use and handle the gun. Like a Glock, and most other modern semi-autos, the P320 has a striker-block-safety that prevents the striker from extending past the breech-face unless the safety lever is actuated by a trigger pull and pushes that block up out of the way. So for example, should the sear hook somehow fail and release that pre-cocked striker to fall without the trigger being pulled, it would be caught by the striker safety before the tip of the striker could reach the primer, and the gun won't fire. However, if you put 4-5lbs of pressure on that trigger, intentionally or accidentally, it's going to push the striker block up out of the way, disengage the sear from the striker, and the gun is gonna go bang. That's how it was designed.

The P320 does have some design advantages over other striker platforms when it comes to adminstrative handling. For one, you don't have to pull the trigger to take it down. I personally know people who have had NDs with Glocks doing this...absolutely their fault and not the fault of the gun, but the P320 eliminates that opportunity altogether. There's also an internal safety that requires the magazine to be removed and the slide be locked to the rear, in that order, before the takedown lever can be rotated. This prevents the user from trying to disassemble a loaded gun.

If you're uncomfortable with a very light trigger on your carry gun, the P320 is probably not the gun for you. If you do choose to carry one, it's imperative that you practice good trigger-finger control, use a quality holster that doesn't crush into or allow foreign objects to encroach into the trigger guard (either around or through the holster), and always use caution when re-holstering to ensure that clothing or other objects don't snag on the trigger. The same can be said for many other handgun designs, though, especially striker-fired guns.

I carry a P320 daily at work, but it rides in a hard-sided Safariland duty holster, that's properly sized for the gun. I have no concerns about the gun going off in that rig without me doing something to cause it to do so. I've run, fallen, fought with people, rolled around on the ground, slammed into walls, gone under water, through heavy brush, you name it...as have my co-workers...and we've never had a P320 go off on its own. On the other hand, I would never take a P320 and shove it in a cheap Uncle Mike's soft-sided IWB holster and stick it in my pants. That's just creating an opportunity for that trigger to get bumped and put a round into your butt/leg/foot/wedding vegetables.

Full disclosure...when not at work, I usually (but not always) carry other stuff. Mostly DA/SA semi-autos or revolvers....both of which have a longer, heavier initial pull. This is partially because I like these platforms, but also because they provide more versatility in carry options when I'm out doing my own thing. There is also admittedly some comfort in knowing that there isn't pre-cocked spring pressure in those designs sitting behind a live primer...I have to create that pressure by pulling the trigger. I do keep the manual of arms for everything I carry the same, at least to bring the gun into action...I won't carry a gun with a manual safety. Everything needs to come straight from the holster and fire with a simple trigger pull just like the gun I train on and carry for work.

Sorry, I got kinda long winded, but I hope this post helps you make an informed decision about your handgun. The P320 is a really excellent, reliable gun that is easy to shoot well. I enjoy working on them, shooting them, and teaching people to shoot them. There are some considerations that one must take into account about the platform, though, and I would never fault someone for deciding that they're personally more comfortable carrying something else. Carrying a firearm is very much a personal decision, and you have to decide for yourself what is the best fit for you. Just be sure that you're making that decision based on facts, not just a reaction to media hype or statements from some attorney who knows nothing about the technical features of the gun and is just out to make a buck.

 

[dekindy]

What 92FSTech said. The P320 initially passed all industry drop tests. I believe it was the Dallas Police Dept., to their credit, tested even more extensively and discovered only one way that the gun would discharge from being dropped. One could argue that it might be the most extensively tested and safest pistol in it's category!

 

[Lpherr]

The only repeatable safety issue that has been proven to be a problem with the P320 design, to my knowledge, was the drop safety issue that resulted in the voluntary upgrade program. Essentially what was happening was that if the gun was dropped from above a certain height, at a very specific angle onto the back of the slide, there was enough force to cause the trigger to actuate under it's own inertia, causing the gun to fire. This problem was corrected as part of the voluntary upgrade (a slimmer, lighter trigger was part of this fix, and is clearly evident in the upgraded guns), and they also added a disconnector to prevent the gun from being able to fire out of battery at the same time (the original design does not have this).

While there have been claims of the upgraded guns firing on their own, I have yet to see any of those claims backed up with evidence. If there was a problem with the design of the gun that allowed this to happen, then it would be repeatable (like the original drop safety issue was)...but it's not. Nobody to date has been able to demonstrate mechanically how the post-upgrade guns are discharging without the trigger being pulled. The only explanation I can draw from this is that somehow these folks are pulling the trigger...either with their finger, or some other object, and that is what is discharging the gun.

Then the lawyers get involved, point to the previous issues with the pre-upgrade guns, and yammer on about how the P320 is a dangerous design that goes off by itself. This isn't analysis based on facts...it's an emotional appeal with the goal of making money for themselves and (a little bit) for their client. Also, just because a cop shot himself with his own gun doesn't mean there's a problem with the gun...cops do stupid stuff all the time. I could show you holes in police stations, sheriff's departments, and even at the Indiana Law Enforcement Academy, caused by cops mishandling guns.

All that said...the P320 does have a very light trigger, and a pre-cocked striker, so mechanically it doesn't take much for the gun to fire. This can be good or bad depending upon how you use and handle the gun. Like a Glock, and most other modern semi-autos, the P320 has a striker-block-safety that prevents the striker from extending past the breech-face unless the safety lever is actuated by a trigger pull and pushes that block up out of the way. So for example, should the sear hook somehow fail and release that pre-cocked striker to fall without the trigger being pulled, it would be caught by the striker safety before the tip of the striker could reach the primer, and the gun won't fire. However, if you put 4-5lbs of pressure on that trigger, intentionally or accidentally, it's going to push the striker block up out of the way, disengage the sear from the striker, and the gun is gonna go bang. That's how it was designed.

The P320 does have some design advantages over other striker platforms when it comes to adminstrative handling. For one, you don't have to pull the trigger to take it down. I personally know people who have had NDs with Glocks doing this...absolutely their fault and not the fault of the gun, but the P320 eliminates that opportunity altogether. There's also an internal safety that requires the magazine to be removed and the slide be locked to the rear, in that order, before the takedown lever can be rotated. This prevents the user from trying to disassemble a loaded gun.

If you're uncomfortable with a very light trigger on your carry gun, the P320 is probably not the gun for you. If you do choose to carry one, it's imperative that you practice good trigger-finger control, use a quality holster that doesn't crush into or allow foreign objects to encroach into the trigger guard (either around or through the holster), and always use caution when re-holstering to ensure that clothing or other objects don't snag on the trigger. The same can be said for many other handgun designs, though, especially striker-fired guns.

I carry a P320 daily at work, but it rides in a hard-sided Safariland duty holster, that's properly sized for the gun. I have no concerns about the gun going off in that rig without me doing something to cause it to do so. I've run, fallen, fought with people, rolled around on the ground, slammed into walls, gone under water, through heavy brush, you name it...as have my co-workers...and we've never had a P320 go off on its own. On the other hand, I would never take a P320 and shove it in a cheap Uncle Mike's soft-sided IWB holster and stick it in my pants. That's just creating an opportunity for that trigger to get bumped and put a round into your butt/leg/foot/wedding vegetables.

Full disclosure...when not at work, I usually (but not always) carry other stuff. Mostly DA/SA semi-autos or revolvers....both of which have a longer, heavier initial pull. This is partially because I like these platforms, but also because they provide more versatility in carry options when I'm out doing my own thing. There is also admittedly some comfort in knowing that there isn't pre-cocked spring pressure in those designs sitting behind a live primer...I have to create that pressure by pulling the trigger. I do keep the manual of arms for everything I carry the same, at least to bring the gun into action...I won't carry a gun with a manual safety. Everything needs to come straight from the holster and fire with a simple trigger pull just like the gun I train on and carry for work.

Sorry, I got kinda long winded, but I hope this post helps you make an informed decision about your handgun. The P320 is a really excellent, reliable gun that is easy to shoot well. I enjoy working on them, shooting them, and teaching people to shoot them. There are some considerations that one must take into account about the platform, though, and I would never fault someone for deciding that they're personally more comfortable carrying something else. Carrying a firearm is very much a personal decision, and you have to decide for yourself what is the best fit for you. Just be sure that you're making that decision based on facts, not just a reaction to media hype or statements from some attorney who knows nothing about the technical features of the gun and is just out to make a buck.

I appreciate your input, and hands on experience. I believe ours is manufactured after the recall, and has the straight thin trigger, and I believe it has the slide notch. I'll check.
The link I shared, is just one source I've read. There are a ton of YT vids about the subject also. Knowing that people like to jump on the bandwagon, i.e. the Pepsi/ syringe hoax, it all could have stemmed from a single incident, and others were hoping to cash in. That's why I wanted to get people with experience, to give their opinions and pertinent information.
We both really like the P320, but I want to be sure it won't put a hole in my leg, or worse.
Thanks again, to all.

 

[92FSTech]

All you can do is educate yourself on the action, and if you do decided to carry it, use a proper holster and exercise proper handling techniques...just like you should with any firearm. I personally am confident that mine is safe as designed, but do believe that the platform is less forgiving of mishandling than some others.

Ultimately, only you can decide what you're comfortable with, and that's ok. It's your safety, liability, and body parts on the line. I'll admit that I've owned a couple of guns that I got rid of because I lost confidence in them. They failed me for one reason or another and had to go back to the factory for repair, and although I got them back working properly, I never felt confident carrying them again and ended up selling them off. That decision wasn't even based on any kind of fact...the guns worked fine after factory service...it was just a lack of confidence due to prior experience that lead to a decision to move on to something else.

The great news is, we live in a time where there are tons of great options out there. If you decide you're not comfortable with a particular gun, you can always sell it in good conscience to someone who will use it, and buy something else.

 

[cedartop]

I appreciate your input, and hands on experience. I believe ours is manufactured after the recall, and has the straight thin trigger, and I believe it has the slide notch. I'll check.
The link I shared, is just one source I've read. There are a ton of YT vids about the subject also. Knowing that people like to jump on the bandwagon, i.e. the Pepsi/ syringe hoax, it all could have stemmed from a single incident, and others were hoping to cash in. That's why I wanted to get people with experience, to give their opinions and pertinent information.
We both really like the P320, but I want to be sure it won't put a hole in my leg, or worse.
Thanks again, to all.

It is fine to ask for opinions, but do not carry a gun you are not comfortable with just because a bunch of people on a forum said it was ok. I do carry a 365XL daily and of course have had no issues, but I do remain leery as there have been a number of incidents like the one you reference and it does not look like they can all be explained away by poor trigger finger discipline.

 

[DadSmith]

"When Slatowski "placed his hand on the pistol grip to draw it out of his holster, the weapon fired," according to the lawsuit."

Didn't happen unless he pulled the trigger on draw.

 

[sixGuns]

I'm seriously looking at the P320 platform and I thought this video was a good watch. 92FSTech basically hit the nail on the head and for me, knowing more about the internals and what would have to fail in order to make it fire help ease the mind.

 

[88E30M50]

There will be a Sig 320 in my future one day. I’ve been wanting an M18 but keep spending gun money on other guns

 

[88E30M50]

"When Slatowski "placed his hand on the pistol grip to draw it out of his holster, the weapon fired," according to the lawsuit."

Didn't happen unless he pulled the trigger on draw.

Unless something had gotten in the holster and was fouling the trigger. That’s my guess as to the cause

 

[binkerton]

"When Slatowski "placed his hand on the pistol grip to draw it out of his holster, the weapon fired," according to the lawsuit."

He needs to team up with Alec and get to the bottom of this fast. Guns just going off for no reason!

 

[92FSTech]

I saw his video today and it reminded me of this thread, so I figured I'd share it here. This guy does a very in-depth explanation of the P320 striker-safety and how it functions in the gun:



And here's another video that does a good job exploring the issue behind the pre-upgrade drop-safety issue, and the differences between the pre-upgrade and post-upgrade P320.

 

[DadSmith]

Unless something had gotten in the holster and was fouling the trigger. That’s my guess as to the cause

Shirt was tucked in. Watch his finger on a big screen TV.

 

[88E30M50]

Shirt was tucked in. Watch his finger on a big screen TV.

I was referring to the Sig incident, not the Slatkowski incident. My understanding of Slatkowski’s incident was largely holster related.

 

[sixGuns]

I saw his video today and it reminded me of this thread, so I figured I'd share it here. This guy does a very in-depth explanation of the P320 striker-safety and how it functions in the gun:



And here's another video that does a good job exploring the issue behind the pre-upgrade drop-safety issue, and the differences between the pre-upgrade and post-upgrade P320.

That Sig Mechanics video is spot-on and exactly what needed to be done. I know there are aftermarket triggers with the "dingus" now, but I'm not out for one. The FCU being the serialized part and being able to just replace frames is a big deal IMO. I'd like to make a pseudo combat-commander. 3.6" Xcarry slide with a PMM comp on a full-size frame with the grip chopped to a compact size and have the slide milled for an RMR. I don't want to mess with plates.

 

[Eric94]

I was just reading through a post about carrying on an empty chamber. I can't find it now, but...

We purchased a P320, and have had it to the range. It seems to be accurate for us both, not
overly heavy, minimal recoil, and a smooth trigger. We really like it, but after purchasing it, we've read several articles, and watched many videos,
about how it discharges without a trigger pull. There have been several Law Enforcement officers, along with citizens that this has happened to.
Most take the round in their leg. SIG has retooled the slide, and claims it can't happen, although, there have been people with the upgraded slide,
have it happen.
I do not feel safe keeping a round chambered, even sitting in the safe, so it isn't ever going to be a carry weapon.
Has anyone here, had personal experience with this happening? Would you still keep it chambered after the claims?
Share your thoughts, if you care to.

I own one and love it.
I researched a lot before buying it.
It seemed to be a legit problem that has been probably fixed with a lighter trigger and maybe some other work.
It is speculated that negligent discharges by police were blamed on the gun.
It would be easier to blame a gun than be punished for a mistake.
Nobody can prove this though.

Am I going to carry it, probably not.
It's more of a range gun.
Am I afraid of it going off in the safe, no.
I'd probably store it with an empty chamber to be safe. (in case I fumble with taking it out)
Ive never dropped a gun, but it could happen.
Would I be afraid to drop it, maybe.
I don't fully trust it to be honest.

 

[kjdoski]

The issue with the P320 is it has an enormously complicated design that features a lot of really small parts that have to mate perfectly. Sig's QC since 2005 has been sketchy at best, so the possibility of getting an FCU where the fiddly bits don't mate up JUST RIGHT is pretty high. Add in suspect sources for those fiddly bits, and, IMHO, you've got the potential for a perfect storm.

There have been several instances, on video, where holstered P320s discharged after a sharp impact on the grip.

I think the P320 is super innovative, and the fact that our service members carry them in harms way (along with a lot of LEOs) makes me pray that Sig will eventually get them all correct. But there is NO WAY I would own a non-LE sourced P320.
YMMV, and probably will.