Restraining the aggressor

[dburkhead]

Another bit from Mr. Ciyou's book "Indiana Handgun Law" discusses the aftermath of a defensive shooting. For legal and humanitarian reasons there is the recommendation to render aid to the aggressor once he is no longer a threat. However, he also warns about the possibility that the aggressor may recover and resume being a threat. To guard against that, he said "so if rendering aid, disposable zip cuffs should be considered."

I am really wondering about the legal repercussions of carrying a set or two of zip cuffs--or even just a few cable ties--on my person against the need. I can just imagine the prosecutor: you weren't just a victim. You were out hunting, weren't you?

Thoughts?

 

[D-Ric902]

Thats a good point.I would have to keep it in the back of my mind, but it would depend on the situation. Like Clint Smith says "It depends on what he does, not what I do"

 

[kludge]

To me "aid the aggressor" means call an ambulance for him instead of holding him at gunpoint for 5 minutes while you watch him bleed out.

I would be very cautious about going near anyone that just tried to kill me. A cop may have a duty to render first aid, as would a doctor in a hopital.

Only if I had another person to "cover me" would I render first aid myself, and then maybe only if he were restrained by about 3-4 other guys.

"Recover" might mean that after the shock of being shot wears off, the aggressor realizes he's not going to die from his wound.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Think it through:

Even getting over being called a Rambo or Mall Ninja (heck, I was called Rambo on this board for carrying a 1911, two knives and a flashlight. Good thing he didn't know about my backup gun and IBD on board), do you want to carry around items that make you look "cop-like". They may not be impressed.

The guy you just shot was trying to kill or inflict serious bodily injury and now you want to get closer to him?

You are unafraid of blood-borne pathogens?

You are unafraid to end up in a juijitsu match covered in blood (which is really slippery)?

You are unafraid of potential partners of your threat?

Call the cops, ask for an ambulance to be sent.

 

[TomN]

Even getting over being called a Rambo or Mall Ninja (heck, I was called Rambo on this board for carrying a 1911, two knives and a flashlight.

That was only because of the 1911. I carry a Glock, two knives and a flashlight and I'm considered a teddy bear!

But seriously, thanks for your input on this. I too thought it was a bit much to be expected to render aid to someone that was just trying to cause me great bodily harm.

 

[Dogman]

To me "aid the aggressor" means call an ambulance for him instead of holding him at gunpoint for 5 minutes while you watch him bleed out.

, Plus what Mr Freeman said.

 

[right winger]

Think it through:

Even getting over being called a Rambo or Mall Ninja (heck, I was called Rambo on this board for carrying a 1911, two knives and a flashlight. Good thing he didn't know about my backup gun and IBD on board), do you want to carry around items that make you look "cop-like". They may not be impressed.

The guy you just shot was trying to kill or inflict serious bodily injury and now you want to get closer to him?

You are unafraid of blood-borne pathogens?

You are unafraid to end up in a juijitsu match covered in blood (which is really slippery)?

You are unafraid of potential partners of your threat?

Call the cops, ask for an ambulance to be sent.

I agree 100% call 911. No first aid from me.

 

[RogerB]

To me "aid the aggressor" means call an ambulance for him instead of holding him at gunpoint for 5 minutes while you watch him bleed out.

I would be very cuations about going near anyone that just tried to kill me. A cop may have a duty to render first aid, as would a doctor in a hopital.

Only if I had another person to "cover me" would I render first aid myself, and then maybe only if he were restrained by about 3-4 other guys.

"Recover" might mean that after the shock of being shot wears off, the aggressor realizes he's not going to die from his wound.

When I applied for my LTCH I don't recall having to take an oath to render first aid to any aggressor I may have to shoot to stop an attack on myself or someone else....

Leo's, Medical types and clergy take those oaths.

My

 

[cosermann]

And, if you're not trained/certified in first aid, what about the liability if you screw up some portion of the perp's "first aid?" Could it not then be argued that he died because of your inept first aid?

With all due respect to Mr. Ciyou, whose book I have, I think he's wrong on this one. +1 on calling 911.

 

[indyjoe]

Sad as it is to say it, I could see a prosecutor argue that you immediately tried to perform CPR, etc. because you realized that you should not have shot them.

 

[45calibre]

just call 911 **** trying to save him

 

[45calibre]

Another bit from Mr. Ciyou's book "Indiana Handgun Law" discusses the aftermath of a defensive shooting. For legal and humanitarian reasons there is the recommendation to render aid to the aggressor once he is no longer a threat. However, he also warns about the possibility that the aggressor may recover and resume being a threat. To guard against that, he said "so if rendering aid, disposable zip cuffs should be considered."

I am really wondering about the legal repercussions of carrying a set or two of zip cuffs--or even just a few cable ties--on my person against the need. I can just imagine the prosecutor: you weren't just a victim. You were out hunting, weren't you?

Thoughts?

in could see that happening, its scary just to think about it.

Sad as it is to say it, I could see a prosecutor argue that you immediately tried to perform CPR, etc. because you realized that you should not have shot them.

i could also see that happening. when performing CPR i believe you must continue to do so until paramedics arrive or you can be held liable for their death

 

[obijohn]

this is actually a pretty sticky subject for me and one i've thought quite about quite a bit. i'm registered in ems databases. i've got a responsibility to render aid. while in a discussion of active shooter response, i raised the question, the moral delima of bypassing those in need of care in order to respond to the active shooter. this is quite similar, i think. i've decided that i CAN bypass injured to act against an active shooter. after all, it may be my child in that school, or yours. i can't know without examination if a threat is still a threat, therefore, i'll dial 911 and wait. if alone. if i've got backup, then maybe, MAYBE, i'll render aid. my safety, and those entrusted to my care, or an agressor's well being? me and mine come first. always.

this is not an easy question to answer and i think we should all think through this carefully.

 

[Bill of Rights]

And, if you're not trained/certified in first aid, what about the liability if you screw up some portion of the perp's "first aid?" Could it not then be argued that he died because of your inept first aid?

No. IANAL, but I do know about "Good Samaritan" statutes in all 50 states. These say, in essence, that if you provide care in good faith and without expectation of payment (of any type), you cannot be held liable unless the care you render is negligent. That is to say, if you see an open wound and you put a bandage and direct pressure on it, you're trying to help. If you grab a couple of dirty tools out of your toolbox and a shaker of salt to shake into the wound before you go digging your bullet out, however....

this is actually a pretty sticky subject for me and one i've thought quite about quite a bit. i'm registered in ems databases. i've got a responsibility to render aid. while in a discussion of active shooter response, i raised the question, the moral delima of bypassing those in need of care in order to respond to the active shooter. this is quite similar, i think. i've decided that i CAN bypass injured to act against an active shooter. after all, it may be my child in that school, or yours. i can't know without examination if a threat is still a threat, therefore, i'll dial 911 and wait. if alone. if i've got backup, then maybe, MAYBE, i'll render aid. my safety, and those entrusted to my care, or an agressor's well being? me and mine come first. always.

this is not an easy question to answer and i think we should all think through this carefully.

As an EMT, you have a moral duty to act. You do not have a legal duty to act unless you are a member of a service and in your response area. Technicalities might even limit this to "while on duty", which can vary dependant upon whether it's a paid service or volunteer.
Additionally, your duty to (medically) act is never expected to put you into harm's way. To quote the BTLS curriculum, "Is the scene secure?" If not, stop until it is. Put more succinctly, in the words of one of my instructors: "There is nothing in the world more useless than a dead paramedic."

Cover your own :moon: first. Then cover your partner. You have to be alive to help others.

Blessings,
B

 

[AFA1CY]

But don't EMTs wait for the police to secure the area before responding?

 

[rhino]

Re: restraining someone . . .

Whether it's so you can render medical care or some other reason, I think it's a bad idea and it's not something I would even try to do (as long as society is still functional).

I have never been trained how to restrain someone properly while minimizing risk to myself. I have no interest in learning this or doing it. If someone is no longer a threat and they want to flee the scene, I'll make sure I memorize their appearance as they are leaving so I can give a good description to the cops.

 

[AFA1CY]

Or, rhino will just follow the blood trail....

 

[rhino]

 

[obijohn]

Re: restraining someone . . .

Whether it's so you can render medical care or some other reason, I think it's a bad idea and it's not something I would even try to do (as long as society is still functional).

I have never been trained how to restrain someone properly while minimizing risk to myself. I have no interest in learning this or doing it. If someone is no longer a threat and they want to flee the scene, I'll make sure I memorize their appearance as they are leaving so I can give a good description to the cops.

i do believe that a well armed rhino could suggest, politely, that the aggressor cease and desist and wait patiently for the police to arrive, and get the job done without any other means to restrain an agressor.

 

[AFA1CY]

Just one look at Rhino and I would stay put!