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Remington 700 malfunction poll
- Thread starter CountryBoy19
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CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
That's exactly why this thread was started, because of it's "dismissive" nature. It paints the user as the person at fault for the discharge even if the user has never tampered with the trigger, or negligently maintained it. No where does it admit that the Remington trigger may be designed to allow this sort of failure to be more common.
How about this, for all people that claim that this isn't a problem. Find a particular model of firearm from any manufacturer that has such a high instance of failure as this, yet the manufacturer denied the problem and painted the user as the person at fault. I would be interested to know if there are any other manufacturers/models where it's acceptable for such a "high" rate of failure.
I have 5 Rem 700 and never had a miss-fire, BUT I did have problems with their bolts
and that silly little extractor!!
People forget the FACT that Remington has not been able to replicate one single failure, of one single rifle that was involved in any and all of these accidents. Not once. So what are they supposed to fix? Also, on many of the malfunctioning guns seen in the CNBC hit piece, the trigger was altered in some way.
As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, this is similar to the "runaway" Toyota gas pedal incident. Toyota spent tens of millions of dollars, and lost tens of millions more in sales, researching and analyzing that whole incident 100 ways to Sunday, and found nothing wrong. This in spite of dozens of customer complaints the car "just took off". They were never able to duplicate it. Not even once. So again, just like Remington, what are they supposed to fix? It's always easier, and more cut and dried when you're not involved. Financially, mechanically, or otherwise. Bill T.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
Uh, maybe the trigger mechanism?
It's quite evident that the way the mechanism is designed it is prone to random, unpredictable, unrepeatable failures. Remington knew about it for decades, yet did nothing.
Just because they can't reproduce the problem and there is nothing to "fix" on the current triggers doesn't make them free from fault for continuing to produce a faulty design. That's what you don't seem to understand here.
It's quite evident that the way the mechanism is designed it is prone to random, unpredictable, unrepeatable failures. Remington knew about it for decades, yet did nothing.
Just because they can't reproduce the problem and there is nothing to "fix" on the current triggers doesn't make them free from fault for continuing to produce a faulty design. That's what you don't seem to understand here.
It is you that is continuously saying the design is "faulty". If that is in fact the case, why are shooters, including the United States Government, still demanding the Walker Fire Control Group still be produced and incorporated into the Remington 700 rifles they are purchasing as we speak? I can get into my car right now and drive 2 miles to the Glendale, Arizona Cabela's and buy a brand new Remington 700 rifle with a Walker Fire Control Group straight out of the Ilion, New York manufacturing facility. Why, if it is so damn bad? When the Pinto gas tank design was proven to be faulty, they were taken off the market. The same with the Chevrolet Corvair, along with a host of other products. Stop living in the past. If we could go back in time and correct all that was "wrong", we could stop the attack on Pearl Harbor as well as the Kennedy assassination. What's done is done. What you seem to fail to understand is Remington, or anyone else for that matter, cannot fix what they can't find broken. If there even is anything "broken". Thus far Remington cannot find anything. This isn't a case where something is breaking at a given fracture point, or because of a poor design that can be easily pinpointed. Sure, you say simply to recall them all, and come up with a new design in the process. After all hind sight, (which is always 20/20), says it could have been fixed for .05 cents a gun, or some such crap back before electricity, but again they can't fix what they can't find broken today, here and now.
Yes, guns have apparently discharged hurting and killing people. But Remington has tried to replicate these accidental discharges IN THE EXACT SAME RIFLES THAT KILLED THESE PEOPLE, AND THEY COULD NOT DO IT. Again, what are they supposed to fix? The rifle that killed the boy that was lost track of was found to be heavily rusted, and improperly cared for. The gun in the video that discharged by touching the bolt in the hit piece was found to have the trigger altered. The very trigger everyone is calling suspect. Jack Belk, the alleged "firearms expert", earns half his living testifying against firearms companies as an "expert witness". Watch Remington's reply, then come back with a remedy that is plausible. Remember, bankrupting Remington in the process solves nothing. Your "solutions" thus far would accomplish just that. Bill T.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_KVS1hIbQg&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - Remington's Response to CNBC Under Fire[/ame]
I had an AD at the range last weekend. Of course the rifle was pointed down range, but it signaled that's it time to pack up.
I closed the bolt on my fifth round and it discharged immediately when locking the bolt. In fact, I can easily repeat this (unloaded, of course). The rifle is a .204 Ruger SS, fluted. I bought it used and the trigger is 2-3 pounds, I'm guessing.
Now I can't remove the bolt so something is quite wrong.
I closed the bolt on my fifth round and it discharged immediately when locking the bolt. In fact, I can easily repeat this (unloaded, of course). The rifle is a .204 Ruger SS, fluted. I bought it used and the trigger is 2-3 pounds, I'm guessing.
Now I can't remove the bolt so something is quite wrong.
25 years, literally dozens of 700's in all configurations, ages and calibers...never one issue..ever....IMHO its a bunch of hooey. Now with that being stated...I had an older(yes pre-64) winchester mod 70 that was WELL used...and if you pulled the trig while the safety was on, no prob, but when you kicked of the safety..it would fire, everytime once you had done so...due to use and just general polishing, wear in the safety, trigger mech I would say...never caused an issue...but then again, I was aware of what it would do..
rimfire_crazed
Master
So, you have no idea if your rifle has been worked on, who did the work, or if it was safe. This is Remington's argument to a "t"
It's generally recognized that anything under 3 lbs is unacceptable and likely unsafe in a Walker trigger. Assuming your trigger is as light as you seem to think it is - you have your answer right there.
No idea about removing your bolt.
Did all of your 24+ Rem700's have stock, unmodified triggers?
Yup. I should have stated that I don't blame Remington. But, I don't really see much use in blaming others.
I am going to break down the rifle with a knowledgeable friend and find out what's wrong. Right now you can't even push the bolt release button. At minimum we'll increase the trigger weight. But, should I consider get a replacement (aftermarket) trigger?
rimfire_crazed
Master
You should take it to a gunsmith. The Walker trigger is not for amateurs.
No blame. Some posters here at INGO have chosen to really drink the CNBC kool-aid and I felt compelled to make the distinction between a questionable firearm or one that is properly setup by the factory or a qualified gunsmith.
No blame. Some posters here at INGO have chosen to really drink the CNBC kool-aid and I felt compelled to make the distinction between a questionable firearm or one that is properly setup by the factory or a qualified gunsmith.
Exactly. The trigger in 2 of these incidents, (the Barber boy, as well as the police rifle that fired when the bolt was touched), were all altered outside the Remington factory. Just how the hell is Remington supposed to stop that. The Factory lets a gun out in perfect working order, adjusted to parameters within factory specifications, and some dufus gets into it with a file and or a polishing stone, the gun then becomes unsafe, and CNBC wants to stick it to Remington as a direct result. That is just plain insanity. Remington has been unable to duplicate ANY of these accidental discharges in any of the suspect rifles that involved injury or death.
As was said, too many Kool-Aid drinkers are getting involved here. This is reminding me of the soundbite during Hussein's inauguration with the woman who wasn't going to have to no longer put gas in her car, or pay her mortgage. These people scare me far more than any Model 700 could ever hope to! Bill T.
I have a 722 and watched the CNBC show last night. If there is no problem as some here sugest. Then why the need for the fix of disconnecting the safety/bolt lock. The Remington web site requests owners of the 721 and 722 to return their guns inorder to fix or replace this system?
I believe that people are doing home trigger jobs on the weapons. They want a lighter trigger pull which they perceive will make them more accurate. This makes the weapon unsafe. It is right wing propaganda to try to get control of the firearm industry. These people are evil and the enemy of freedom.
Happened to my brother-in-laws 700 in 223. They sent it back to the factory but they still had it happen again. So now they just dont close the bolt till ready to fire, and never use the safety.
I know I will never own a 700, but I have other reasons as well.
I know I will never own a 700, but I have other reasons as well.
30.06 miss-fire
I was 14, hunting with my family when we had returned I was holding the rifle and took it off safe to open the bolt when it fired. My dad almost beat my butt thinking I was unsafe (finger on the trigger). I couldnt convince him it "just went off". I was holding the rifle in a safe direction and none of the 6 people standing around were hurt. Just my feelings thank god. I still have the rifle now.
I was 14, hunting with my family when we had returned I was holding the rifle and took it off safe to open the bolt when it fired. My dad almost beat my butt thinking I was unsafe (finger on the trigger). I couldnt convince him it "just went off". I was holding the rifle in a safe direction and none of the 6 people standing around were hurt. Just my feelings thank god. I still have the rifle now.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
You 2 clearly didn't look at the poll results, or read the thread. These incidents are not isolated to poorly maintained firearms or altered triggers. As a matter of fact, one incident that I mentioned was a completely stock, factory trigger setup on a gun that was less than 3 months old. Please explain that one to me, I still haven't received an explanation.
Billt, I don't know why I keep replying to a bonehead like you, but I do, probably because it's fun to watch you repeat yourself thinking that it's going to change my opinion. You clearly don't get it yet, it's ok, keep trying. The point I was making is that it apparently is a problem that many people deny, evidenced by the 2 quotes above, and by yourself and others. Kook-aide drinker, not hardly, as a matter of fact, I still haven't watched the whole NBC episode so I just don't see how I can be drinking the Kool-aide. I simply started this poll because I saw the huge number of people that denied that there was a problem, and I wanted to see just how many people have experienced the problem. I realize that it is difficult for Remington to repair an issue that they cannot reproduce, yet that isn't my problem now is it? What you seem to fail to understand here is that I don't have any contempt for Remington or any Remington product "on the whole", my contempt stems from the denial of the problem, by Remington, members of the firearms community, and INGO members themselves. Look people, it's clearly a problem, otherwise we wouldn't have so many people that have experienced the problem.
I've personally witnessed it myself, and I can attest to the fact that the trigger wasn't altered and the gun was not poorly maintained. So now that blows all of the "excuses" out the window and now all we have left is the fact that clearly something in the Remington trigger is prone to malfunction, it's as clear and simple as that, but you just can't swallow it can you? Your dearly, beloved Remington is no longer flawless and that hurts you doesn't it? It just burns deeply and painfully into your gut knowing that what you thought was flawless and perfect is no longer such.
Get over it, the Remington is flawed, just like many other firearms and other mechanisms out there.
All I wanted was for those that say it's "hooey" to admit that there is a problem.
If it cannot be reproduced it isn't a problem period. Your "problem" is you lack any and all common sense. You admit they can't very well repair something they, (Remington), cannot reproduce any more than Toyota, or anyone else could, yet blow it off with your constant foolish replies of "That isn't MY problem is it?"
As I stated, I currently own and shoot 4 Remington 700 rifles, and have since I purchased my first over 37 years ago. I have never had a single issue with the safety and or trigger in any of them in thousands of rounds safely fired downrange. If some other idiot blows his head, hand, or foot off with one IT ISN'T MY PROBLEM NOW IS IT? Nor is it Remington's just because people like CNBC, along with people like yourself seem to think so, and want others to jump on your idiotic bandwagon that doesn't have anymore traction now, than it did back in the early 80's when all of this crap first surfaced. All people like you have proven is the more you try to stir a turd, the more you can make it stink. And benifit no one in the process. Stop talking like a complete fool and grow up! Bill T.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
That's almost laughable, the part that makes it not so laughable though is that you actually believe the crap that is spewing out of your mouth.
BTW, just because it can't be reproduced does not mean that it's not a problem, you need to carefully examine the logic you're using because it is very flawed.
If your computer randomly shuts off while you're in the middle of something. You can be darned sure that you'll think it's a problem. But what happens if the problem cannot be explained or reproduced consistently? That means it stops being a problem and things are all better now? I'd be interested to know what school of logic you're following because I've never heard of such lunacy before.
I don't care how many you've owned and shot, the poll results reflect differently. There is obviously a problem, and you haven't addressed any of the personal stories to refute the problem. Bill, if you're so smart, and all-knowing (which we really know you're not) then please tell me what caused the malfunction that I personally witnessed and what makes it "not a problem". Because when a firearm discharges without the trigger being pressed, that is clearly a problem, the fact that the problem is not consistent or easily reproduced has no bearing on whether or not it is a problem. Please address this issue rather than side-stepping it like you've been. Until then, you don't have an argument.
All you've really argued about so far is that Remington can't afford to acknowledge that there is a problem, to which I've agreed. I want you to directly address the fact that it is or isn't a problem; afterall that is the whole reason this thread was started.
You do know the implications of your answer right?
If you say it's not a problem then you're clearly the fool in this this because the personal accounts and poll results are right there to see that this is a common occurrence.
If you admit that it is a problem then why are you even arguing? You just like to argue?
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