Reloads for self defense????

[johnnybravo]

Billy and Wanda are buying dope from Larry. Billy decides to rob Larry with a knife. At 3' away, Larry pulls a gun, fires once, and kills Billy. Wanda swears that Billy was 20' away and backing up with Larry murdered him. There are no other witnesses or video. Which would Larry rather have from the lab?

A factory exemplar result vs the actual result of whatever reload, evidence that impeaches the shooter's story and corroborates the (liar) witness story.
A factory exemplar result vs the actual result of a factory round, evidence that impeaches the (liar) witness story and corroborates the shooter's story.

Wouldn't the factory/reload issue be moot at that point? Both Wanda and Larry would be charged with murder regardless, as they were committing a crime when a death occurred.

 

[ru44mag]

Wouldn't the factory/reload issue be moot at that point? Both Wanda and Larry would be charged with murder regardless, as they were committing a crime when a death occurred.

The best part is johnnybravo has only made 10 posts in 6 years, and states he is in a state of confusion. I'm sorry, but that's freakin' funny.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The best part is johnnybravo has only made 10 posts in 6 years, and states he is in a state of confusion. I'm sorry, but that's freakin' funny.

It's the Internet. Instead of looking at the context and taking the information in the light it's offered, someone invariably feels the need to twist or ignore the context so they can argue about it.

So, we can side bar and ask him to show us the IC code that would back that up (35-42-1-1 is murder, 35-48-4-10 is dealing marijauna), we can then note that 35-48-4-10 is a misdemeanor and is not listed in the murder statute. If we're real lucky we can then argue that maybe "dope" doesn't refer to marijuana and spin some awesome hypothetical to prove it is murder after all. Maybe it's the butler in the foyer with the candlestick.

...or we can avoid the whole thing, change the hypothetical to "buying a VCR from Larry", realize the information about the issue at hand (reloads and the possible effect on forensic evidence that informed Massad Ayoob's opinion) is the exact same, and go on about our day.

 

[ru44mag]

It's the Internet. Instead of looking at the context and taking the information in the light it's offered, someone invariably feels the need to twist or ignore the context so they can argue about it.

So, we can side bar and ask him to show us the IC code that would back that up (35-42-1-1 is murder, 35-48-4-10 is dealing marijauna), we can then note that 35-48-4-10 is a misdemeanor and is not listed in the murder statute. If we're real lucky we can then argue that maybe "dope" doesn't refer to marijuana and spin some awesome hypothetical to prove it is murder after all. Maybe it's the butler in the foyer with the candlestick.

...or we can avoid the whole thing, change the hypothetical to "buying a VCR from Larry", realize the information about the issue at hand (reloads and the possible effect on forensic evidence that informed Massad Ayoob's opinion) is the exact same, and go on about our day.

Your logic is spot on!! Your wisdom exceeds most. You bring so much to INGO. And you know you are well respected here, but come on...laugh BBI.

 

[johnnybravo]

Well, guys, my intent was not to sidetrack or offend anyone. When the example of the dope deal came up, the question of added penalties for a crime escalating in seriousness just came kind of appeared. To me, "dope", unless specified, could mean anything from marijuana to cocaine.

ru44mag, my "State of Confusion" Was just a play on words when I was filling out my personal info during my initial signing up for my Ingo account. I get a chuckle out of it. I do reside in Indiana.

BBI, sorry, I didn't mean to twist or demean your example. This is an interesting discussion about the factory/reloads for defensive purposes and believe it or not, I do take it seriously.

Please carry on.

John

 

[Woobie]

I have some golden sabers loaded up as a back up, but carry Critical Duty. To my knowledge, none of the current generation of defensive bullets are available as components. With handgun rounds, bullet construction is even more important. So even though I can make 100% reliable reloads, and crank them up to factory velocities (actual velocities, or even the ones they market theirs to do), I don't have access to modern bullet construction.

 

[ru44mag]

Well, guys, my intent was not to sidetrack or offend anyone. When the example of the dope deal came up, the question of added penalties for a crime escalating in seriousness just came kind of appeared. To me, "dope", unless specified, could mean anything from marijuana to cocaine.

ru44mag, my "State of Confusion" Was just a play on words when I was filling out my personal info during my initial signing up for my Ingo account. I get a chuckle out of it. I do reside in Indiana.



BBI, sorry, I didn't mean to twist or demean your example. This is an interesting discussion about the factory/reloads for defensive purposes and believe it or not, I do take it seriously.



Please carry on.

John

I needed a good laugh and I think my sense of humor can sometimes be a little warped. BBI is always so serious. And he always brings in a lot of great facts, and educates INGO with all his knowledge from years of experience...but sometimes he is a little too serious. It just struck me as funny that someone that almost never posts chimed in with a little zinger. I don't think anyone was offended. You carry on as well.

 

[ru44mag]

I have some golden sabers loaded up as a back up, but carry Critical Duty. To my knowledge, none of the current generation of defensive bullets are available as components. With handgun rounds, bullet construction is even more important. So even though I can make 100% reliable reloads, and crank them up to factory velocities (actual velocities, or even the ones they market theirs to do), I don't have access to modern bullet construction.

Someone else can chime in, but I believe Golden Sabers or Hornady XTP bullets would do as a back up, or in a pinch, if for some unforeseeable reason we could not get our hands on the factory self defense stuff.

 

[Woobie]

Someone else can chime in, but I believe Golden Sabers or Hornady XTP bullets would do as a back up, or in a pinch, if for some unforeseeable reason we could not get our hands on the factory self defense stuff.

Definitely a suitable alternate if you don't have the primary. But it isn't quite as good.

 

[RMC]

What exactly is the objective or goal of defensive ammo other than you pay more for it? Damn near anything from .22 LR and up has stopping/killing power depending on placement. Any ammo is only as good as where you put it. There are a lot of videos on youtube that will show or give you the test results of different ammo and projectiles. You can match the fps to the projectile to achieve the result that tickles your fancy. I trust my 380 reloads for performance more than any commercial ammo that's available at 2-3 times the cost. The same goes for 9 mm, 45 acp, and everything else I have loaded for.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

People die from falling off a 3' ladder. People die from falling off a 50' ladder. They do not die in equal proportions. That, in a nut shell, is the argument for better ammunition. A quality hollow point destroys more tissue by both making a larger crush cavity and by cutting tissue instead of pushing it out of the way. Shot placement isn't always ideal. Hence, anything that destroys more blood vessels, does more nerve damage, etc. contributes to a faster stop of the bad guy until a fatal hit can be achieved.

 

[HoughMade]

Strictly from an evidentiary standpoint, I'd be more worried about having a "We don't call 911" yard sign or bumper sticker than I would a reload and the thin possibility that testing for contact vs. distance would ever be an issue.

 

[RMC]

Even a fmj to the pelvis would stop just about anything in its tracks but I agree with what you are saying.

 

[Leadeye]

It would seem that most would feel better with factory ammo, but as has been posted by those knowledgeable of the actual process the question is moot. I'll toss this in for the experienced people, and ask how the factory/reload question would play out in the wrongful death civil case that might follow a self defense shooting. Personally, nearly all my hunting is done with my reloads that I have great faith in.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

've yet to see a case where the reload/not reload had any relevance.

Me too.

Of course I am in Tippecanoe County where firearm homicide must share the stage with knives, chunks of concrete, chains, a rope with a large padlock on it, and, of course, a big, ol' stick.

Even a fmj to the pelvis would stop just about anything in its tracks but I agree with what you are saying.

Has not been my experience.

 

[rhino]

Even a fmj to the pelvis would stop just about anything in its tracks but I agree with what you are saying.

What in the pelvis are you targeting? How do you know exactly where those bones are in a given, living person? Are you going to be able to break both sides if you're talking about the pelvic girdle?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Even a fmj to the pelvis would stop just about anything in its tracks but I agree with what you are saying.

If you get a psychological stop, yup. I've seen a guy who had all the fight taken out of him by a .25 to the bladder. However if they decide to stay in the fight, handgun rounds aren't even remotely reliable at mechanically disabling the pelvis.

 

[ru44mag]

It would seem that most would feel better with factory ammo, but as has been posted by those knowledgeable of the actual process the question is moot. I'll toss this in for the experienced people, and ask how the factory/reload question would play out in the wrongful death civil case that might follow a self defense shooting. Personally, nearly all my hunting is done with my reloads that I have great faith in.

You would have to google "Ayoob" and "why not use reloads for self defense." It's a crazy story about this guy going to jail for manslaughter, for defending himself. This crazy lawyer had the ammo tested to indicate distance from the dead guy. Powder burns you know. But they tested factory ammo, instead of his reloads indicating the the dead guy was farther away than he should have been for justifiable homicide. He was really closer, but the reloads made it appear as if he was farther away because there were less powder burns. It's all a bunch of BS, and a good lawyer probably could have got him off. In a nutshell, it is probably irrelevant in Indiana, but could happen to some poor sap on the East Coast or West Coast, Or maybe Arizona...I think. It's all pretty ignorant. But the people that make laws are not always the most educated where it counts. Kind of like making it legal to hunt deer with a .30 caliber rifle or a .243 caliber rifle. But nothing in between, or nothing larger.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It would seem that most would feel better with factory ammo, but as has been posted by those knowledgeable of the actual process the question is moot. I'll toss this in for the experienced people, and ask how the factory/reload question would play out in the wrongful death civil case that might follow a self defense shooting. Personally, nearly all my hunting is done with my reloads that I have great faith in.

Outside my wheel house, but I'll tell you they ask about hobbies when you do a deposition for such an event. Or at least they did for mine. Civil suits are much more lax in what's 'relevant' and what can be brought into the trial. I would count on it being brought up and how I'd want to explain it before having to do so 'on the spot'.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Strictly from an evidentiary standpoint, I'd be more worried about having a "We don't call 911" yard sign or bumper sticker than I would a reload and the thin possibility that testing for contact vs. distance would ever be an issue.

This one is still good, though, right?