Question for FFL dealers Re: straw purchase question on 4473

[Joe Williams]

So, yesterday I had a customer buying a Henry 17HMR rifle. This was an old farmer looking for something to carry in his combine for critters and coyotes. We'd chatted a good bit, nothing indicated to me that there was a straw purchase. When he checked the questions, he answered straight "no" to all of them, including 11a. I asked him to re-read the questions. He changed the first question to yes and said he misread it. I sold him the gun.

I've got a co-worker who doesn't know crap about guns, the laws, or sporting goods in general. He's the kind that doesn't do any work, but instead gets by through butt kissing, and trying to make co-workers look bad. So, he goes to an assistant manager, who doesn't work sporting goods and doesn't know the laws, and told her I wasn't allowed to sell that gun without waiting 48 hours and convinced her that I was about to land her in jail.

Now, I read the rules and laws, but haven't gotten through all of the laws and rules regarding sales. Given that he DOESN'T read the rules and laws, but spouts what he thinks they should be, he was unable to provide a cite for what he was telling her... which I'd really like to have if there is such a rule.

So, can anyone help me out? Was I allowed to sell that gun, or not? Is there something saying I should have waited 48 hours, and if so where can I find it?

 

[MrsGungho]

I have had customers mark that question no because they didn't understand it, didn't read it, whatever. I've had them reread, initial their error, mark it correct and sell them the gun.
If that question was answered no and he insisted it was no, the sell is over right now. The questions have to be answered correctly or you can't even make the call.
I know nothing of a 48 hour wait on a mistake.

 

[IndyMonkey]

Doesn't the ATF have number you can call instead of askin questions on the interweb?

 

[Joe Williams]

Doesn't the ATF have number you can call instead of askin questions on the interweb?

Yep. But I like researching from multiple sources, and have been. Asking a phone rep a question is about on par with asking a cop a legal question... you just don't know how much they actually know about the subject.

Kinda want as many asnwers as I can get, especially seeing as how I've decided it's time to have a chat with a couple of my managers about this subject, and that person, here in an hour or so.

 

[melensdad]

Follow up question, what if I walk in and say I am buying the gun as a gift for a minor child of mine. The law says that a minor cannot own the gun, so technically it is still my gun until the child turns legal age and I am responsible for making sure the gun is only used/available under supervision.

So when a customer fills out the form and says they are buying the gun for themselves (since they are still the legal owner) but talks about it being a gift for their child, then what happens?

 

[kludge]

Gifting is fine, you are still the "actual purchaser" according to ATF, and gifting to a minor is AOK.

The federal law says they can't purchase, they can however possess/own it. It's up to the parent/gift giver to follow state laws.

Indiana Code 35-47-10
Indiana Code 35-47-2.5

If grandpa give little Johnny or little Susie a rifle for Chrismas, and (s)he uses it for an approved activity, or is kept at home and has parental permission - Johnny or Susie, can possess/own the gun.

...and 35-47-2-7
Indiana Code 35-47-2

IC 35-47-2-7
Prohibited sales or transfers of ownership
Sec. 7. (a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10, a person may not sell, give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon (as defined in IC 35-50-2-11) to any person under eighteen (18) years of age.

BTW, IC 35-50-2-11 has nothing to do with "assualt weapons" - It may be vestigial from the AWB, but I don't have any old copies of the IC laying around. But if that's the case I wonder why it just isn't listed as "repealed".

 

[CountryBoy19]

Gifting is fine, you are still the "actual purchaser" according to ATF, and gifting to a minor is AOK.

The federal law says they can't purchase, they can however possess/own it. It's up to the parent/gift giver to follow state laws.

Indiana Code 35-47-10
Indiana Code 35-47-2.5

If grandpa give little Johnny or little Susie a rifle for Chrismas, and (s)he uses it for an approved activity, or is kept at home and has parental permission - Johnny or Susie, can possess/own the gun.

...and 35-47-2-7
Indiana Code 35-47-2

IC 35-47-2-7
Prohibited sales or transfers of ownership
Sec. 7. (a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10, a person may not sell, give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon (as defined in IC 35-50-2-11) to any person under eighteen (18) years of age.

BTW, IC 35-50-2-11 has nothing to do with "assualt weapons" - It may be vestigial from the AWB, but I don't have any old copies of the IC laying around. But if that's the case I wonder why it just isn't listed as "repealed".

+1

I had my very own shotgun at age 14 and I drove all over IN by myself shooting at trap events starting the day I got my license.

 

[singlestacksig]

years ago all the questions were no..so one would get into the habit of marking no down the page..

 

[aclark]

You did it right Joe. You can't tell them what the answers should be, but you can let them know they should carefully [re]read the questions and answer the questions as honestly as possible. If they do misunderstand a question and change it after you inform them to reread it, and you honestly believe that they misread/mismarked it then you are fine. There is a bit of gray area here though because you may think that they are honest about it, and it ends up a straw purchase, I guess that's the ATFs job to prove you guilty though (kind of like selling booze to an underage with a real "fake" ID).

I'd say you have nothing to worry about, and you can tell the coworker to shove it because he's wrong, then tell your boss that the coworker is full of it.

 

[DeadeyeChrista'sdad]

Meanwhile, how are the guy's tires holding up? Still full of hot air, like him? Just wonderin'...... and kidding. Your best recourse IS a talk with your managers. We've got your friend's brother where I work. Let's just say his work speaks for itself.

 

[451_Detonics]

Years ago it was all no answers on the yellow form...we had so many customers automatically check them all no after they changed it wasn't funny...just did as you did and had them initial their mistake. Never was a problem when ATF ran in store paper work checks.

 

[sawgunner74]

I was told initials are no longer accepted,just fill out a new form (if it was a mistake).batf has been a lot more scrutinizing lately.

 

[Joe Williams]

snip
Let's just say his work speaks for itself.

Pretty much what I got told today

 

[Squirt239]

So, yesterday I had a customer buying a Henry 17HMR rifle. This was an old farmer looking for something to carry in his combine for critters and coyotes. We'd chatted a good bit, nothing indicated to me that there was a straw purchase. When he checked the questions, he answered straight "no" to all of them, including 11a. I asked him to re-read the questions. He changed the first question to yes and said he misread it. I sold him the gun.

I've got a co-worker who doesn't know crap about guns, the laws, or sporting goods in general. He's the kind that doesn't do any work, but instead gets by through butt kissing, and trying to make co-workers look bad. So, he goes to an assistant manager, who doesn't work sporting goods and doesn't know the laws, and told her I wasn't allowed to sell that gun without waiting 48 hours and convinced her that I was about to land her in jail.

Now, I read the rules and laws, but haven't gotten through all of the laws and rules regarding sales. Given that he DOESN'T read the rules and laws, but spouts what he thinks they should be, he was unable to provide a cite for what he was telling her... which I'd really like to have if there is such a rule.

So, can anyone help me out? Was I allowed to sell that gun, or not? Is there something saying I should have waited 48 hours, and if so where can I find it?

As you may or may not know, you have the right to refuse to sell a firearm for ANY reason. ANY...AAAANNNNYYYY reason. With that being said, the ATF put on a class for us, and in that class they said, "You are allowed to give the person ONE opportunity to reread all answers/questions, and make any corrections. If at that time they do not make a change, the sale must be terminated." I always go with my gut. If something doesn't feel right, I end the sale. If a customer starts getting huffy, I end the sale. You have to remember it's YOUR @$$ on the line too. If you had a good feeling about the guy, by all means you did the right thing. Otherwise, I'm sure you would have ended the sale. Don't beat yourself up over it. Instead go above that person and file a greivence. Everyone has a boss...just remember that.

Take care, be safe, and don't sweat the petty bs.

 

[2cool9031]

Tell your co-worker to mind their own damn business. I still don't understand the 48 hour thing. Either a purchase is legal or not....what does 48 hours have to do with it?

 

[diverdown219]

I still don't understand the 48 hour thing. Either a purchase is legal or not....what does 48 hours have to do with it?

Me neither...can we hear more about this?

 

[Joe Williams]

Me neither...can we hear more about this?

Seems to be a rule that was made up on the spur of the moment, by a young man who thought he could get some brownie points by trying to make me look bad to a manager who didn't know any better.

Hasn't worked out well for him, I don't think.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Joe!!

We need an update on how the meeting with your mgr went. :-)

-J-

 

[MrsGungho]

Seems to be a rule that was made up on the spur of the moment, by a young man who thought he could get some brownie points by trying to make me look bad to a manager who didn't know any better.

Hasn't worked out well for him, I don't think.

do tell, I am a woman and I love gossip.

 

[Joe Williams]

Joe!!

We need an update on how the meeting with your mgr went. :-)

-J-

The meeting went well, my department manager was interested to discover that I wasn't as blissfully unaware of my co-worker's yakking behind my back as they thought I was, and I learned that the co-worker has, in fact, managed to draw a fair amount of attention he'd probably rather not have with his tactics. For example, his repeated complaints to the store manager that I didn't do any work when the bosses weren't around? Seems our hero was blissfully unaware of the fact that security tapes can be reviewed for quite some time in the past. One of us has been caught not doing any work, and it certainly wasn't me Not to mention, I've taken over what is perhaps the most hated project in our department, and the result are visible and impressive (if I do say so myself.)

Also, I haven't been written up for my mistake (at least not yet) though I certainly could and perhaps should have been. There has been such a huge distraction caused by the other issues that THAT issue hasn't been mentioned beyond me admitting that I certainly couldn't make any excuses for not noticing the incorrectly answered question.