- Jan 12, 2012
- 27,286
- 113
Free will's a B****!
Where do you find this 'free will'? My lawyer charged me plenty for mine!
Free will's a B****!
Bear in mind this was probably still a time where Catholics had to pay indulgences to the Church to get their loved one into heaven.
Did you know Lutheran Chrch Missouri Synod believes the papacy fulfills the prophecy of the antichrist?
Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the LCMS - The Lutheran Church?Missouri Synod
from the book of Concord if you choose to read 1530s thinking
Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope - Book of Concord
Vinegar. You give it? Voice of experience, be prepared to get it back.Well, you can try to belittle my beliefs, or you can help me understand yours a bit better, or am I to glean the whole of my understanding of Catholicism from Kevin Smith'sDogma?
Yes, yes, "Thou art Peter and upon this [petra] shall I build my church." Heard it plenty in my old Baptist church. And then there's the 2000 years of history since that day that includes the Protestant Reformation, the Lutheran Church (I know Martin Luther died a devout Catholic.), the Thirty Years' War, right up to the Irish Republican Army, all predicated on the same essential scism as Shia and Sunni Islam.
Great! Excellent! Glad to hear it!
…. What is it? The difference.
While I will admit some things are harder to understand for me, I've yet to find a "proposed inconsistency" that can't be explained through study & prayer, YMMV.
Back to work tomorrow, I'm guessing this thread will have grown quite large by my next extended visit.
Interest'n......
?.....where'na hell's all'ese.....'entity's'......in cases like this'n.....an' ALOT more jus' like it.....
Body of missing Monroe Co. girl found - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
can anybody answer 'at ?.......an' save all'a " the (insert yer choice here....) had a better plan..."
cuzzz.....at's horsesh**.....
Interest'n......
?.....where'na hell's all'ese.....'entity's'......in cases like this'n.....an' ALOT more jus' like it.....
Body of missing Monroe Co. girl found - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports
can anybody answer 'at ?.......an' save all'a " the (insert yer choice here....) had a better plan..."
cuzzz.....at's horsesh**.....
Harleyrider_50 said:Interesting...
Hm? Where might one procure one of these "entities" in situations much like this one?
(story)
Would anyone mind taking a stab at answering that question? I would appreciate if you refrain from "the (deity) had a better plan..." quips... because that, frankly, is dubious at best.
Now pardon me whilst I enjoy a bag of popped corns.
Hence whybi don't understand Catholics. You pray to Mary??? That's a big no-no amongst protestants.
TRANSLATO-BOT
Vinegar. You give it? Voice of experience, be prepared to get it back
Here's my point. Regardless of the details of the religion, agency versus intercessation, divinity versus sainthood, I can see no meaningful, operational, functional distinction bet the idolatry of saints in Catholicism and the idolatry of pagan gods in polytheism. There does seem to be something more of the human in the Catholic saint system, whereas the pagan systems seem to be more naturalistic. There may not be a patron saint of trees, but I'm sure somewhere there's a patron saint of arborists and another for lumberjacks, so depending on whether you wanted to make the trees healthy or make them into furniture, you might have to pick your prayer intercessor with more care than just praying to Vertumnus and Pomona, the god and goddess of fruit trees.
First, my comments are a description of my own imperfect understanding of God's will, as expressed through Catholic teachings. There are likely to be dogmatic wrinkles that I will skip or minimized for purposes of arguing religion on the interwebz. To keep this civil, let's avoid any sort of "gotcha" type posts.
St. John Gualbert is the patron saint of foresters.
As a bit of a complication, it is ok to pray for intercession from any loved one who has passed away and who (you think) is in Heaven. Yes, I can see how that might look like ancestor-worship, as I concede that this idea of intercession can be interpreted as you describe. It is a similar denunciation to the Mary-worship accusations.
I can only say that it is not like that. Frankly, I think it is a part of an hidden agenda to simply have Catholics pray more. So you're all set to pray. You pray to God, the father, because He's, like, the Big Guy. Then you pray to Jesus, the Son, who knew what it was like to be human. Then you pray to the Holy Spirit, the Great Do-er of the Holy Trinity.
Ok. We're done here, right?
Not exactly. As a Catholic, probably helpful to do a decade of the Rosary for Mary's intercession. But wait, you're going to be felling some trees later? Not a bad idea to pray to St. John Gaulbert for his help and protection. But wait, the trees are on your deceased grandfather's property? He was a good man, hopefully he's out of purgatory. He taught you responsibility and how to work a chainsaw safely. Not a bad idea to pray for his intercession on your behalf, too.
Before you know it, prayer-time doubled. Which is not all bad.
So, that's a bit facetious.
The whole intercession thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO when it comes to critics of Catholicism. It is a misunderstanding (intentional or otherwise) to compare Catholicism to the pagan system. Is Catholic dogma on this point nuanced? Perhaps. But it doesn't mean the nuance can be ignored.
Saints, or other deceased, are not idolized in the sense of being worshiped as gods. They sometimes act on behalf of God to further His will.
By the way, this is not a new phenomenon. In the early days of the church, there were real problems with groups doing things very close to worshiping people, not God.
Oh, I also want to pick up on one specific thing you said. "I can see no meaningful, operational, functional distinction between...." Here's another fundamental point: none of us truly know how this works. That's something we can't really know (or find out is wrong) until we cross over. The Catholic Church's belief system is based on the teachings of Christ and a couple millennia of human experience. (More, if you count the Jewish tradition from the Old Testament.) While I can understand the rejection of that as non-authoritative, I disagree. There is much that science and reason cannot explain.
In terms of being banned, having skimmed the thread about the religious aspects of islamofascism, I can easily see myself picking up a few days of unplanned INGO-vacation. I'll probably avoid it.
Rosaries
Chaplets
Saint ______ medals
are focus objects (like prayer beads) to ease the random thoughts and distractions involved in regular (daily) prayer.
Protestant denominations (that I have been involved with) may frown on Rosaries but love them some prayer cloths and prayer lists.
Its basically the same thing. Give the Protestants 1500 more years and they may have a Paul rosary
I'm not trying to bash anybody. I'm a committed Christian that is studying to convert to Catholisism from Basement Baptist.
Rosaries
Chaplets
Saint ______ medals
are focus objects (like prayer beads) to ease the random thoughts and distractions involved in regular (daily) prayer.
Protestant denominations (that I have been involved with) may frown on Rosaries but love them some prayer cloths and prayer lists.
Its basically the same thing. Give the Protestants 1500 more years and they may have a Paul rosary
I'm not trying to bash anybody. I'm a committed Christian that is studying to convert to Catholisism from Basement Baptist.
I don't pray the Rosary or speak in tongues, but I know people who do.
Whatever helps your faith is fine with me.
I don't think God will reject you if your faith isn't exactly like mine; I think you're wrong if you believe God will reject me if i don't follow your traditions.
If you want some fun, research why the "Our Father" is different from "The Lord's Prayer."