Pre-Fight Decision Making / Panhandlers / Awareness

[jdhaines]

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Police arrested a panhandler who reportedly lit man on fire outside a convenience store in Long Beach, Calif. after not receiving money.

I'm posting the above link because this is a perfect example of why you need to have a plan to deal with everyday people and situations. Having a plan to recognize threats early enough to make a difference is a topic that far too few people include in their training. The chance of running into an aggressive panhandler is so much higher than an active shooter needing another hole in his head. Think of what is probable not what is possible.

I personally have experience with three companies which provide a solution to these problems and think they are all solid in their own ways.

No particular order*

• Shivworks
• Suarez Intl (Swisher locally)
• Mindset Labs

I have no doubt there are others as well, but I haven't worked with others specifically.

Training with them or another group that specializes in this portion of a fight will help dramatically. Early decision making will frame your chances of survival or escape later on. If you can't/won't train professionally, at least train with some other people who will act out the parts. You don't have to be MMA fighters to get something out of some decision making practice. We did it a week or two ago at a small training group get-together...no one got hurt but lots of eyes were opened to the everyday problems that you might face.

We can talk more about this if everyone so chooses, but as a quick hitter I'll throw out a couple quick tips that I've found from my own professional training (companies above), teaching, and training group practice on these fundamentals.

What your plan shouldn't include

• Anything including the words "I'd Just..."
• The idea that you don't let people near you
• The idea that you will always be in condition X and don't have to worry
• The idea that your pistol or knife will simply scare them away if you access them early on
• The idea that carrying a gun makes you safe

What your plan probably should include

• Actual role-played decision making practice with training weapons
• A pre-planned set of verbal skills
• A pre-planned rough estimate of where you personally are comfortable escalating to tools or physical violence
• Solutions that don't include your main self defense weapon
• A decent set of simple combatives that you have practiced and are confident enough in that you won't default to pulling your gun if someone pushes you around a little (barring disabilities or other issues).
• Understanding of the laws in your state regarding use of force of civilians and when you are justified in acting
• A plan that may include family members if you are often with them

Your solution absolutely doesn't need to look like mine or anyone elses, but have a solution. These are common problems and they seem to be increasing. I've personally seen an uptick in the number of homeless/panhandlers/beggars in the last year or two. They have less to lose than you. Mishandling a beggar could end you in jail, fired, injured, or dead. For them, it's three hots and a cot. Think through this guys, and be honest about your abilities. When you come up with your shortcomings...start addressing them.

 

[N8RV]

All good points. I cannot disagree with a single one.

However ...

I'm a one-trick pony.

The last fight I was in was in the 7th grade.

I've never boxed, wrestled or taken karate lessons.

I'm an old guy with two bad knees who depends on his hands to make a living. I'm not about to use my fists to avoid drawing my weapon if I am confronted by an aggressive ne'er-do-well.

I have no interest in learning to fight. As the saying goes, "I'm too young to die and too old for an ass-whoopin'."

I realize that there are still some self-defense techniques that I really should learn that wouldn't be too strenuous and could be easily mastered, but if I can't avoid, evade or talk my way out of a confrontation and it escalates ... well, that's where my training kicks in. I cannot become a jack of all trades, but I'll do my best to become the master of one.

 

[cedartop]

All good points. I cannot disagree with a single one.

However ...

I'm a one-trick pony.

The last fight I was in was in the 7th grade.

I've never boxed, wrestled or taken karate lessons.

I'm an old guy with two bad knees who depends on his hands to make a living. I'm not about to use my fists to avoid drawing my weapon if I am confronted by an aggressive ne'er-do-well.

I have no interest in learning to fight. As the saying goes, "I'm too young to die and too old for an ass-whoopin'."

I realize that there are still some self-defense techniques that I really should learn that wouldn't be too strenuous and could be easily mastered, but if I can't avoid, evade or talk my way out of a confrontation and it escalates ... well, that's where my training kicks in. I cannot become a jack of all trades, but I'll do my best to become the master of one.

I'll get back to this with more, but for now I'll throw this out. There is a lot of truth to what you say, but you still can't just count on your gun to solve every problem. We had two guys in our 0-5 ft Pistol Gunfighting class this weekend that were both around 60. This class deals with exactly the kind of problems and solutions that Josh is talking about. Both of the "older" guys came to the conclusion, that if things either started at or escalated past the escape/evade phase and into the the actual fight phase, they would normally be justified in employing lethal force sooner than a younger healthier individual. There is still a whole world of stuff in between there, including being caught by surprise and having to mount some kind of physical defense before accessing your tool of choice.

 

[Randy Harris]

I always find it curious when people say they do not need to know how to fight because they carry a gun....yet they apparently never take time to consider that they may have to fight the bad guys off of them IN ORDER TO GET TO THEIR GUN......bad guys do not tend to let folks call time out to access their pistol.....

Having possession of a gun and actually being able to access and deploy it under duress and physical pressure are two entirely different things. George Zimmerman probably thought he didn't need to know how to fight either. I bet he'd give everything he has to be able to go back in time and learn a default headcover and learn how to get out of mount......

 

[iChokePeople]

.

 

[cedartop]

.
I'm an old guy with two bad knees who depends on his hands to make a living. .
I..

You didn't look that old to me, and plenty tough.

 

[GIJEW]

I'll get back to this with more, but for now I'll throw this out. There is a lot of truth to what you say, but you still can't just count on your gun to solve every problem. We had two guys in our 0-5 ft Pistol Gunfighting class this weekend that were both around 60. This class deals with exactly the kind of problems and solutions that Josh is talking about. Both of the "older" guys came to the conclusion, that if things either started at or escalated past the escape/evade phase and into the the actual fight phase, they would normally be justified in employing lethal force sooner than a younger healthier individual. There is still a whole world of stuff in between there, including being caught by surprise and having to mount some kind of physical defense before accessing your tool of choice.

I'm in that 'trick bag' too. While I have been in a number brawls (not of my choosing) and do have some martial arts experience, I find it hard to see myself being able to use much of it. It's hard to throw a punch when I struggle to just lift my arm over my head. So tell us a bit about the 'stuff in between'--pepper spray etc? And does 'sooner' arrive with recognizing that E&E won't work, and they're predictably younger, bigger, stronger, not alone?
That 0-5yd class is on my to-do-list when I get the $

 

[ModernGunner]

Not sure at all about the companies that were listed, as far as the backgrounds of the individual Instructors.

But that IS a question that the potential Student SHOULD seek an answer to.

And no, I do NOT mean just find out if the Instructor, the specific Instructor teaching YOU was in the military, or an LEO, etc., etc., etc. That MAY or MAY NOT be relevant. But ask of the Instructor teaching use has ever, personally, been IN a gunfight (if a combat gun class). If not, IMO you're best off looking elsewhere.

The same would hold true for the various non-gun martial arts. Look for someone who has used their skills, successfully, on 'the streets'. Trophies from the ring aren't much use on the streets, unless you happen to be carrying it to utilize as a weapon.

If the class you're taking if for the purpose of carrying and protecting you and yours with your pistol, the skills you need should and must be taught in that FIRST class (whether that class is one or several days, but somewhere in that first class). Those 'combat tactics' shouldn't be 'reserved' until you 'advance' (or can afford to pay) for the 'Intermediate' or 'Advanced' class.

Is the bad guy gonna wait and come back when you made it through to, and completed, that Advanced class? Don't bet your life on it.

THEN find out if the Instructor is allowed to actually TEACH the skill sets he / she has in that first class. Or, does the school, again, wait until 'upper level' classes as a 'matter of policy'? That will tell you if the goal of the school is to instruct YOU, or it's just another retail service.

THEN find out WHO they're teaching. If the school basically teaches 'anyone that signs up 'cause everyone should be able to learn', then maybe best to look down the road.

Why? Because these are specialized skills that NOT 'everyone' needs to learn. If they're NOT screening prospective students properly and thoroughly, then they're going to end up teaching the next group of terrorists those same tactics. Don't think that's possible? How 'bout those flight schools that taught the 9/11 pilots. No thanks, I'm not teaching future scumbags or terrorists. "Who's to decide"? The school SHOULD be saying "*I* decide".

We so often note and poke fun at "armchair quarterbacks". 'Academic experts' on the use of force have no greater credibility.

 

[chtheo]

Josh,

Thanks for keeping these types of situations in the forefront of our minds. All too often it's easy to lull yourself into a false sense of security because we carry a gun.

I learned so much from our last training session and have made the decision to focus more of my efforts on the material we covered.

I look forward to training with you again in the future.

Chuck

 

[theblackknight]

Fighting and styles is an emotional topic. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. If we are attacked with surprise and violence of action, no amount of training can save us. We can mitigate the surprise by exercising a little situational awareness.
This is worth mentioning again. If we take the element of surprise away from a predator, he will fear reprisal and forgo the attack.
It is simple tactics. Action versus reaction. If you are aware, you are acting. If you are switched off and have no situational awareness, you are one step behind and will at some point in time, fall into a predator’s web.

Pat Mac

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But ask of the Instructor teaching use has ever, personally, been IN a gunfight (if a combat gun class). If not, IMO you're best off looking elsewhere.

I've learned a lot from people who've never been in a real gun fight, and I've seen street thugs who've been involved in multiple gun fights that were idiots and survive due to luck and the other "team" also being made up of idiots. Simply having used a firearm in a real shooting doesn't equate to a quality instructor, and lack thereof doesn't mean they have nothing to teach you.

I can also tell you that there are some high speed instructors out there with amazing techniques that just don't translate well into the civilian world. A particular SF instructor comes to mind who came out to our range, who is simply amazing to watch work, loves to share his knowledge, and is a gifted teacher. However some of this techniques rely heavily on well trained squad mates and may get a lone fighter killed or at least needlessly exposed. He's better than me, y better with a rifle, and I can take some of his techniques, but you always have to remember your mission and resources may not match up with that of your instructor's experiences.

 

[cedartop]

I've learned a lot from people who've never been in a real gun fight, and I've seen street thugs who've been involved in multiple gun fights that were idiots and survive due to luck and the other "team" also being made up of idiots. Simply having used a firearm in a real shooting doesn't equate to a quality instructor, and lack thereof doesn't mean they have nothing to teach you.

I can also tell you that there are some high speed instructors out there with amazing techniques that just don't translate well into the civilian world. A particular SF instructor comes to mind who came out to our range, who is simply amazing to watch work, loves to share his knowledge, and is a gifted teacher. However some of this techniques rely heavily on well trained squad mates and may get a lone fighter killed or at least needlessly exposed. He's better than me, y better with a rifle, and I can take some of his techniques, but you always have to remember your mission and resources may not match up with that of your instructor's experiences.

I didn't respond to the post you quote as to not take the thread off track, but you are right on here.

 

[jdhaines]

I'm an old guy with two bad knees who depends on his hands to make a living. I'm not about to use my fists to avoid drawing my weapon if I am confronted by an aggressive ne'er-do-well...

I realize that there are still some self-defense techniques that I really should learn that wouldn't be too strenuous and could be easily mastered, but if I can't avoid, evade or talk my way out of a confrontation and it escalates ... well, that's where my training kicks in. I cannot become a jack of all trades, but I'll do my best to become the master of one.

People in your position will have to find solutions which may be different from mine. Tools may have to be accessed sooner. Pepper spray could be an option but you'll have to make sure things like COPD wouldn't make the risks higher than normal. I'd recommend Massad Ayoob's "Judicious Use of Lethal Force" which can be mostly viewed for free on Youtube. In it he makes the best case I've heard for shooting someone who attacks you while you have a drawn gun. He's using it in the context of a home invasion, but if you can describe reasons why you can't be fighting and scrapping with a "urban ute" then it may be the best course of action. At least you are thinking about how an encounter may happen and what your best options are.

Here is a great thread with some thoughts on this exact topic
Total Protection Interactive (It's worth the sign-up)

And no, I do NOT mean just find out if the Instructor, the specific Instructor teaching YOU was in the military, or an LEO, etc., etc., etc. That MAY or MAY NOT be relevant. But ask of the Instructor teaching use has ever, personally, been IN a gunfight (if a combat gun class). If not, IMO you're best off looking elsewhere.

The same would hold true for the various non-gun martial arts. Look for someone who has used their skills, successfully, on 'the streets'. Trophies from the ring aren't much use on the streets, unless you happen to be carrying it to utilize as a weapon.

THEN find out WHO they're teaching. If the school basically teaches 'anyone that signs up 'cause everyone should be able to learn', then maybe best to look down the road.

Why? Because these are specialized skills that NOT 'everyone' needs to learn. If they're NOT screening prospective students properly and thoroughly, then they're going to end up teaching the next group of terrorists those same tactics. Don't think that's possible? How 'bout those flight schools that taught the 9/11 pilots. No thanks, I'm not teaching future scumbags or terrorists. "Who's to decide"? The school SHOULD be saying "*I* decide".

Emphasis Mine. **EDIT BehindBlueIs beat me to it**

I appreciate your input ModernGunner and respect your decisions but I think I'm on the opposite side on all three counts. With respect to "been in a gunfight," I could care less if my instructor has actually been in and survived a gunfight. Lots of people with little to no training wind up winning. We can see that with all the CCTV videos which are all over the internet. We've seen 30 year LEOs that have never had to pull their guns. Actually getting into a gunfight is more luck than anything. Having the skills to survive or win, I would say, are unrelated to having been there and done that. People that have "been there" are awesome sources of information about the feelings, emotions, stress, and other issues that it is difficult for us to understand if we haven't been there. But I don't need one of these guys for skill development.

With respect to martial arts...I want someone who is going to teach me things that work against real resistance. If I can defend his attacks with everything I've got and it still works, then it'll work against resistance "on da streetz." I'm not sure Chael Sonnen has ever been in a "street fight" and I'd jump at the chance to learn from a guy like that. It was very important in traditional martial arts to learn from someone who had real experience, because you never really practiced fighting with resistance. Your only hope was what he was teaching would really work. That's a lot of hoping. With the renaissance in alive training recently, we're all better off because we can be fighting against someone with real resistance every time we train. It's a wonderful time to be learning about fighting.

Finally, my biggest problem is with the last part. If you show me a training group that wants to do a background check and dig into my personal life, I'll show you a training group who I'll be avoiding. I'd eat my hat if a single instructor on this board could say they're worried that they may have had a person sign up for a class who may have been a future terrorist. It isn't their job to screen everyone, and it would absolutely stop me from spending a dime with their organization.

Josh,

I learned so much from our last training session and have made the decision to focus more of my efforts on the material we covered.

You're welcome Chuck, and I'm glad we met. I think your scenario was probably the best of the bunch as far as being eye opening. It gets back to the idea mentioned earlier by N8RV that we all need to know when to access tools and when not to. Hopefully we'll get together again.

I know not everyone agrees with me, but I'm preaching far and wide the benefits of this portion of the fight being important over practicing only gunwork.

 

[rhino]

And no, I do NOT mean just find out if the Instructor, the specific Instructor teaching YOU was in the military, or an LEO, etc., etc., etc. That MAY or MAY NOT be relevant. But ask of the Instructor teaching use has ever, personally, been IN a gunfight (if a combat gun class). If not, IMO you're best off looking elsewhere.

Have you been in gunfights? If so, would you care to tell us about them and how and why that particular experience is essential?

 

[esrice]

Great posts Josh. Can't really think of much else to add.

 

[Tinman]

Emphasis Mine. **EDIT BehindBlueIs beat me to it**

I appreciate your input ModernGunner and respect your decisions but I think I'm on the opposite side on all three counts. With respect to "been in a gunfight," I could care less if my instructor has actually been in and survived a gunfight. Lots of people with little to no training wind up winning. We can see that with all the CCTV videos which are all over the internet. We've seen 30 year LEOs that have never had to pull their guns. Actually getting into a gunfight is more luck than anything. Having the skills to survive or win, I would say, are unrelated to having been there and done that. People that have "been there" are awesome sources of information about the feelings, emotions, stress, and other issues that it is difficult for us to understand if we haven't been there. But I don't need one of these guys for skill development.

JD,

This is a GREAT assessment. Very well thought out position, and great advice for people looking into instructors. The biggest thing is to define what you expect to learn, and then make sure that your instructor can fit that narrow requirement.

I've always said, I can learn something from anyone, even if it's what not to do

Tinman....

 

[cedartop]

I'm in that 'trick bag' too. While I have been in a number brawls (not of my choosing) and do have some martial arts experience, I find it hard to see myself being able to use much of it. It's hard to throw a punch when I struggle to just lift my arm over my head. So tell us a bit about the 'stuff in between'--pepper spray etc? And does 'sooner' arrive with recognizing that E&E won't work, and they're predictably younger, bigger, stronger, not alone?
That 0-5yd class is on my to-do-list when I get the $

Sorry for the delay. Your question deserved a complete response which I didn't have time for until now. You really seem to be on the right track already. By stuff in between, I didn't necessarily mean less than lethal weapons but those can figure into it as well.

The best way to explain what I mean in the space available here is to use Randy's PESTS material. As he states this is just similar material to much that is out there set up in a way to understand. What we are talking about are things like the Wyatt protocol or Southnarc's MUC (managing unknown contacts) material.

P- Pay attention. As everyone knows this is your first line of defense and should not be underestimated. Unfortunately we can't maintain a super high level of readiness for long periods of time. For this and other reasons you need other options.

E- Escape/Evade. Two different things but similar. If you are paying attention, these would be your next step. The best way to win a fight is not to be in it.

S- Stop their encroachment. For us that can include the Fence and a sharp verbal rebuke.

T- Tape loop. You may have heard John Farnam among others talk about this. What it boils down to is having a memorized verbal "statement" to use if asked a question so that you don't have to shift gears and think about an answer.

S- If they have not stopped by now, it is time to move offline (step). Consider orbiting around them here to better get a view of the surrounding area and possible accomplices.

E- Explode off the X. Pretty simple in theory. Quickly get of the spot you are on to not only reset their OODA loop but set yourself up for what comes next.

A- Acquire better position. This can very by the situation, but should be looked at as flanking or getting behind the attacker so that you may***,

T- Take the fight to them. This is a mindset type of thing. You are committing to the fight. Nothing halfway here.

F- Fight, this is the actual physical part of the confrontation. Guns, knives, fists, bludgeons, whatever.

A- Assess. Did I hit him? Did it work? Is he down?

S- Scan. Does he have any friends? Does he have any friends behind me?

T- A number of T's. Prioritize them by need. Top off, Treat injuries, Take cover, Take off, Talk to who needs talking to.


This is an oversimplification, but hopefully I am getting my point across.

 

[iChokePeople]

^^

I think that's a HUGE part in this. Especially the first few.