Possible Replacement for Quik-Clot

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  • JimFloyd

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    QuickClot

    I show a video of the pig experiment discussed during my Point of Wounding Care courses. While the powder form of quikclot was used, the hemostatic gauze is much better since you do not have to be concerned about spilling the agent and/or wind blowing it away. The exothermic properties of the new formulation make it cooler (approx. 105 F) to apply thus causing less discomfort. This is what we (as instructors) carry in our kits and they work great! Just make sure you have significant bleeding (read: liquid) before using ANY hemostatic agent as they are REALLY uncomfortable (painful!) without the presence of liquid.

    Regards,

    Jim
     
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    obijohn

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    well said, jim. it should also be pointed out that a decent pressure dressing, such as the israeli battle dressing, should work well enough for nearly all uses WITHOUT any hemostatic agent. i have Celox in my kit, but only for use when the ibd won't do the job. i personally would think twice about using Celox even for a traumatic amputation. jmho.
     
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    rhino

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    Hemostatic agents are unnecessary and delay the action that actually stops bleeding, i.e. direct pressure. All of the agents require direct pressure to be effective, and the pressure works without them. I know 99 of 100 combat medics will swear by the stuff, but the primary utility of QwikClot is to separate people (and of course deep-pocketed government agencies) from their money.

    My opinion is heavily influenced by Doc Gunn, which I freely admit. He's got a couple of decades as a board-certified ER/trauma physician and he was trained and mentored in tactical medicine by the late SGM Chris Dwiggins (if you know combat medicine, you know that name). Until last year, he never even needed a tourniquet because he'd stopped bleeding with direct pressure every other time (when it was possible to stop the bleeding; some people you can't save). The one case where he's used a tourniquet was after he'd gotten the bleeding stopped with pressure, but the surgeons delayed surgery too long.

    If you must use a hemostatic (and I say "must" with the implicit "to make yourself feel better"), Celox is preferred. It's less likely to do harm from heat or allergic reaction.

    Direct Pressure and elevation are the keys.

    End of ranting. :D
     

    Disposable Heart

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    Hemostatic agents are unnecessary and delay the action that actually stops bleeding, i.e. direct pressure. All of the agents require direct pressure to be effective, and the pressure works without them. I know 99 of 100 combat medics will swear by the stuff, but the primary utility of QwikClot is to separate people (and of course deep-pocketed government agencies) from their money.

    My opinion is heavily influenced by Doc Gunn, which I freely admit. He's got a couple of decades as a board-certified ER/trauma physician and he was trained and mentored in tactical medicine by the late SGM Chris Dwiggins (if you know combat medicine, you know that name). Until last year, he never even needed a tourniquet because he'd stopped bleeding with direct pressure every other time (when it was possible to stop the bleeding; some people you can't save). The one case where he's used a tourniquet was after he'd gotten the bleeding stopped with pressure, but the surgeons delayed surgery too long.

    If you must use a hemostatic (and I say "must" with the implicit "to make yourself feel better"), Celox is preferred. It's less likely to do harm from heat or allergic reaction.

    Direct Pressure and elevation are the keys.

    End of ranting. :D

    Pretty much what was learned in the Boy Scouts. I've used that concept a few times, once on someone that was in a car accident. Stopped the really bad bleeding. Paramedics showed up, threw some of the clotting fo fo on, then it bled like crazy. So much for that.... :(

    Pressure and elevation...Keys to success.
     

    dburkhead

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    Pretty much what was learned in the Boy Scouts. I've used that concept a few times, once on someone that was in a car accident. Stopped the really bad bleeding. Paramedics showed up, threw some of the clotting fo fo on, then it bled like crazy. So much for that.... :(

    Pressure and elevation...Keys to success.

    What I was taught was get pressure on the wound first thing. If you don't have a bandage to hand, you slap your hand* over it to buy time until you can get a bandage.

    *This was in the day before the risks of various blood-borne pathogens became such a significant issue.
     

    Mr.Hoppes

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    This is where situational awareness comes into play.
    Questions should come to mind.
    How far( TIME ) mode of transport ( Rough ride? ) to a qualified medical facility.

    I think there is also a point where by one needs to be at the very least familiar with surgical procedures. Clamping off a bleeder might be necessary before taking a road trip over land to a medical facility. With in ones own operating group someone should be educated in basic surgical procedures. IF this world ever comes to it Medical treatment will become ever more important to survival. Society has gotten so used to going to the doctor every time something comes up. Things like removing a fishing hook embedded in a hand become a festering open wound if not treated properly. If this world ever does have a major event I think Medical care will become a premium. and not all medical professionals will be able to deal with the lack of technology, and modern conveniences. Most will adapt, but at what rate? Being prepped and having basic tools is vital but knowing when and where to used them are more important.
     

    JimFloyd

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    other thoughts...

    There is a lot of interesting debate, discussion and research on the use of hemostatic agents. Being engaged in a war with the horrific wounds suffered by our brave and outstanding service men and women means that you get a lot of data over a short period of time. Of course the caveat is does that data apply to the civilian setting? This is where the point of a previous response is pertinent: what is the distance to definitive care? As an example, wilderness medicine is defined as being more than 1 hour from definitive care (which essentially means surgery). In Katrina, if you were in New Orleans, or along the Gulf Coast in most areas, you were suddenly in the wilderness in terms of definitive medical care.

    Celox and QuikClot are both valuable agents when utilized in the proper context. Both have advantages and dis-advantages, and each have fans and detractors.

    Direct pressure and elevation often do work, but not always (with one reason being that people do not maintain pressure long enough... which can be 10-20 minutes... and the other reason, as appropriately mentioned, that some people just cannot be saved) for prothrombin activation, platelet aggregation, blah, blah...) to occur. That is why tourniquets are making a big comeback in pre-hospital medicine. As a Pre-Hospital Trauma Life Support (PHTLS) Instructor I now teach, as a part of that new, updated curriculum, that the order is: direct pressure - elevation - tourniquet (no more pressure points). A multitude of military studies confirm what surgeons have known and done for years: that tourniquet placement of (ideally less than) 4 hours, but up to 6 hours does not lead to limb loss. As a wilderness emergency care instructor-trainer and Indiana State EMS Primary Instructor I now include hemostatic agent and tourniquet use in all of my wound care courses. Not because direct pressure should not be utilized first, but because they provide more options to save a life if pressure does not work. Also, I mention my titles here, not to impress or boast, but to demonstrate that I have knowledge of, and qualifications in, the subject matter discussed.

    BTW... As with any of my posts, I would be more than happy to share sources and research on which I base my professional opinions and welcome views and discussion which dissent from my own.

    Finally, to continue the discussion of alternative hemostatic agents on a more "in-formal" basis, two items that people have traditionally utilized is FLOUR and SPIDER WEBS.... the second one being my favorite! :)

    Regards,

    Jim
     
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    rhino

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    One of the many excellent features of an IBD or similar product is that it will apply the direct pressure for you as long as you leave it in place. If you need more pressure, you just make it a little tighter with no need to disturb the dressing and any clotting that has already begun.
     

    JimFloyd

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    IBD... etc.

    I agree Rhino. I also like the blood stopper dressing for the same reason.

    It is interesting that they are about to release a IBD with QuikClot embeded in the pad.

    Have you used any of the H compression bandages?

    Regards,

    Jim
     

    rhino

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    Have you used any of the H compression bandages?

    Not familiar with those. Is that the same as the bandages with two dressings, so you can use one on the entry and locate the other over an exit wound?

    As fas as "using" goes, I've only used IBDs in instructional settings and practicing. I've been fortunate enough to not need to actually use one (hopefully that will remain true).
     

    JimFloyd

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    No, I believe you are thinking of the double-pad IBD. The H dressing/bandage is similar to the IBD but has a plastic H shape on top around which you wind the tail to create pressure.

    I've used a lot of stuff to control bleeding on the street, including direct pressure and tourniquets (I was certainly covered in blood that day as the guy severed 2/3 of his upper arm!). My partner, who is a paramedic for the local FD, responded to a fistula that was bleeding profusely the other day. He just happened to have a IBD in his pocket that he had been showing some guys, so he whipped it out, stopped the bleeding, and transported. The docs at the hospital had not seen the IBD before and were quite impressed.

    Regards,

    Jim
     

    Prometheus

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    No, I believe you are thinking of the double-pad IBD. The H dressing/bandage is similar to the IBD but has a plastic H shape on top around which you wind the tail to create pressure.

    I checked your site and ebay store but didn't see any of these. Do you know where I can find some at decent prices? Even if they are in bulk, I can always find friends to split a case up with. Tks!
     

    VN Vet

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    When I was kid, I cut myself as I was helping my Grandpa in his garage. The place was heated by a coal fire pot belly stove. He went a got a handfull of ash an put it on my wound. I remember it stopped the bleading quickly. It did leave a dark scar for a number of years, but my body ridded itself of the dark stuff after a while.

    I don't recommend this at home, but it will work if that is all you have.
     
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