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Military suicides
- Thread starter 2A_Tom
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- military war on guns
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sounds like just another step to watch all us veterans. You know, we are scary people and all. As if there isnt another way to do it, especially when we have access to 20 million pills that they will prescribe you to take care of your problems.
BehindBlueI's
Grandmaster
- Oct 3, 2012
- 25,937
- 113
I'm a veteran, and I'm also a realist. If someone is really dedicated to killing themselves, you won't stop them. You might delay them, but you won't stop them. I've had the unfortunate experience of racing a fellow soldier to the ER for an intentional overdose.
That said, a lot of folks just have a small window were they have that dedication. If you can keep them going through that window, they may go on to happy and productive lives.
Its not an easy call. How far do you go to protect people from themselves, and the flipside of the coin, how willing are you to standby and let someone who suffered the wounds of war commit the greatest tragedy of all by not stepping in? Reasonable people may differ, but you are talking about real people, not statistics, not intangible "theys", real people.
Kind of off topic, but I had to use the VA for treatment for an injury I sustained while still in but that required about another year of treatment after I got out. I hate them. Honest to God hate them. I know it works for some people, but I was treated like crap, like I was a burden to them. I had a visible physical injury, I would hate to see how they treated the guys with mental wounds. Veterans from multiple generations just friggin' warehoused in the waiting room, so busy they didn't even have enough seats for us. I hear they are better now, but I'm honestly getting worked up just at the memory and have never went back. If they would do a better job of screening and caring for, this wouldn't be such an issue. Rant off, sorry, still works me up.
That said, a lot of folks just have a small window were they have that dedication. If you can keep them going through that window, they may go on to happy and productive lives.
Its not an easy call. How far do you go to protect people from themselves, and the flipside of the coin, how willing are you to standby and let someone who suffered the wounds of war commit the greatest tragedy of all by not stepping in? Reasonable people may differ, but you are talking about real people, not statistics, not intangible "theys", real people.
Kind of off topic, but I had to use the VA for treatment for an injury I sustained while still in but that required about another year of treatment after I got out. I hate them. Honest to God hate them. I know it works for some people, but I was treated like crap, like I was a burden to them. I had a visible physical injury, I would hate to see how they treated the guys with mental wounds. Veterans from multiple generations just friggin' warehoused in the waiting room, so busy they didn't even have enough seats for us. I hear they are better now, but I'm honestly getting worked up just at the memory and have never went back. If they would do a better job of screening and caring for, this wouldn't be such an issue. Rant off, sorry, still works me up.
That was what i was referring to. The DHS. Glad to see we shed blood, sweat and tears for the Country, only to be called a threat to it. Wonder if they did this crap to the Greatest Generation when they returned from WWII. Of course not, there would have been mass outcry. Now, people just turn the channel to American Idol and forget about the sacrifices overseas.
As for this, IF you are a good leader, you can tell when a Soldier (or Marine, Sailor, Airmen, etc) is hurting and needs some help that you might not be able to give him. Sadly, some are being promoted too fast, do not know how to take care of their troops, screw them over to try and get promoted sooner. Then there is still the "stigma" of asking for help. A lot of senior leaders say that they understand, and its a problem, but still have no idea and continue as if its not there.
Im trying to figure out why they even reference private firearms, I was in for 10 years and some change and know first hand that soldiers residing on post arent allowed to have private weapons in their vehicles or in barracks so I fail to see how this is really going to stop some troop hell bent on self destruction.
Every single base I have been on requires arms to be stored with the provost marshal or military police. I dont know the regulations for married military members living in base houses though but I bet they are similarly restricted.
I think its just one more thing for the gun grabbers to get private owned guns out of military member's hands based on "good intentions" personally.
I do feel that they need to do more of members of the military who need help, and take away some of the stigma attached to seek out that help.
You read the article and see that the law they just passed last year, they are already trying to amend it barely a year later which was meant to keep the services' from gun grabbing attempts.
Every single base I have been on requires arms to be stored with the provost marshal or military police. I dont know the regulations for married military members living in base houses though but I bet they are similarly restricted.
I think its just one more thing for the gun grabbers to get private owned guns out of military member's hands based on "good intentions" personally.
I do feel that they need to do more of members of the military who need help, and take away some of the stigma attached to seek out that help.
You read the article and see that the law they just passed last year, they are already trying to amend it barely a year later which was meant to keep the services' from gun grabbing attempts.
If they really want to slow down the suicides they should restart the draft. Less than 1/2% of 1% of americans actually have served this country.
I think they current trends of society not really recognizing the sacifice of military members would reverse themselves in short order if more people of this country were REQUIRED to serve and see first hand the sacrifices made by service members. Then we could relieve GI joe and GI Jane of shouldering multiple deployments over and over until they break or self destruct. Not to mention the residual effects of our wonderful representatives being a lot more hesitant of going to war, obviously due to well known and influential son's, and daughter's now being required to serve.
Every one of the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen have a breaking point, and the current pace has caused a lot of the problems 'they' say they want to prevent.
If 'they' really want to slow down or stop the self desruction from the inside then institute the draft and require military service and get some fresh bodies in there.
I think they current trends of society not really recognizing the sacifice of military members would reverse themselves in short order if more people of this country were REQUIRED to serve and see first hand the sacrifices made by service members. Then we could relieve GI joe and GI Jane of shouldering multiple deployments over and over until they break or self destruct. Not to mention the residual effects of our wonderful representatives being a lot more hesitant of going to war, obviously due to well known and influential son's, and daughter's now being required to serve.
Every one of the soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen have a breaking point, and the current pace has caused a lot of the problems 'they' say they want to prevent.
If 'they' really want to slow down or stop the self desruction from the inside then institute the draft and require military service and get some fresh bodies in there.
Also the current pace of promotions needs to slow down. For crissakes the Army is now making people SSG (E-6) in FOUR years time in service. That means 22yo's are responsible for a squad of soldiers health and well being when they are barely of drinking age.
And its really alarming to see the amount of troops who make E-6 in those four years. Its not rare believe me.
And its really alarming to see the amount of troops who make E-6 in those four years. Its not rare believe me.
BehindBlueI's
Grandmaster
- Oct 3, 2012
- 25,937
- 113
Thank Clinton. His gutting of the military expelled experienced NCOs who would have mentored the next generation of NCOs, and it reduced the pool of enlisted men so much that people who never should have promoted were. Bush doesn't expand the military in time, and suddenly we find ourselves at war and scrambling for recruits. We take people we never should have taken, thugs and thieves, the mentally unfit, the borderline illiterate, some from 'the territories' that don't even speak decent English...and then we promote them because they are who we have.
People who say Obama is our worst president ever have short memories. Clinton screwed this country the worst of any president in living memory. Gutted the military INTENTIONALLY, passed the Brady Bill with no exceptions for service members and ruined thousands of careers, let future terrorists be fruitful and multiply because he was a ***** and scared to step in and do what needed to be done, left the VA a hell hole that was overwhelmed and understaffed, plus the AWB and his other shenanigans that reduced the respect the post should have. Look at his interference in business lending practices, telling banks who they had to lend money to, and see how that played into the real estate bubble and its collapse, see how that led into today's economy? Obama did inherit a mess, but 90% of it was not from Bush...
Again, sorry for what's probably coming across as an angry rant. I'll see myself out of the thread.
I know that this happens in some cases but I sure would have liked to have been in a unit where you get promoted that fast. Also the logic that you need to be older to be more responsible is completely flawed. Age has little to do with competence. The root cause of suicides is the stigma that is attached to asking for help. The fear of being labeled with a problem. The DOD says that you can get confidential help but when your unit is close knit group secrets do not stay that way for long and pretty soon people are joking about taking away your knives,boot laces and firing pin. Anti-Suicide slideshows do not help either. That just turns the whole topic into a laughing matter and brings out more jokes. Being away from society in a place where the population hates you causes people to change and its not for the better. Some can handle it and some cannot. Unfortunately there is no way to know before it happens if someone will be able to take the pressure without breaking.
I agree the promotions are happening way too fast, you got guys now making E-5 in the time it traditionally took soldiers to just make E-4. While I agree that maturity and age are sometimes not synonymous; with age does come more experience and in general maturity. It's a mistake promoting all these younger soldiers that are still in basically the same age demographic as those they are leading. If you're still 21-22, even 25 you're still in that partying/women chasing mindset yourself. A lot of the issues an NCO has to deal with aren't even related to combat operations.
It's the same with all wars, at the end of Vietnam we had the same problem. Young men and women are taught from birth that killing for any reason is a mortal sin, then our leaders send them off to war where in some cases killing is almost a daily thing. Then we throw them back into civilian life where they are expected to resume a normal life of peace and love but the war stays in there mind for many years. I had a brother-in-law that after two tours in Vietnam came home and put a shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger, no one would have ever thought he would do somthing like that. Those who have been exposed to the killing should all be required to see help before being sent out on there own to the civilian life.
Where do you draw the line? Should people that drive by a fatal wreck be FORCED to talk to someone? After all, they did see something. As stated previously, death effects people differently. Just like in Vietnam, we had Soldiers/Marines over for multiple tours, some came back and moved on, some did not. And now, believe it or not, you have to "talk" to people now, several times when you get back. I know that I have. They have you go right away, then again after so much time. They have briefings to try and help. I am VERY against your idea of forcing someone into therapy like that. Especially if they do not need it.
Army Struggles To Respond To Epidemic Of Suicides During Suicide Prevention Briefs | The Duffel Blog
The real problem is anti-suicide briefs
The real problem is anti-suicide briefs
PGRChaplain
Master
I know a lot of vets that are being treated for PTSD right now. For some this has been a 40+ year struggle. I have friends under 35 going through the same process. Mental Illness is a disease just like Cancer, COPD, Heart Disease ect ect. Seeking tereatment is the first line of defense. All those Military folks getting out know how to answer the questions so their are not held up to see a "Shrink" (no offense to Mental Health Professionals). I have had 2 friends who took their own lives and will be at a Visitation tomorrow night for a woman in her 30's that did the same last week. Like an Alcoholic, you can't fix those who don't feel they have a problem.
Yes, there are those that can put it all behind them and move on, that would and should be left to the profesionals as to who needs help. An LEO involved in a shooting is required to see a pro. so why not a young man/woman from the military.
And a 21 y.o 2LT is responsible for a platoon ... the horror.
TheCapulet
Sharpshooter
I think you missed his point there, friend. After every tour, everyone undergoes PTSD 'talks'. Every tour, ever soldier/warrior/sailor/airman.
Look at the scale, on the LEO side, they can better afford to have a patrol down for a couple days, while things are "taken care of". The military side, you would have entire squads and platoons that would be locked down, where would they be placed at during this time. What about a change over of responsibility, helping the new people to take their place for those couple days. Logistically, its impossible. I do believe that the military is doing a lot better getting troops back to the rear then in times past, but its still a work in progress. Just like my Medical Board that I am going through now. Its still not perfect, but its light years ahead of how we were treated back in Vietnam era. Heck, even from 2002 until now, its light years ahead. Is there still more to go, yes, and there always will be more to go.
As some have already stated, its cause we cut the military too often, to thin out the herd. We lose quality leaders (and yes, we lose some D bags, but we lose quality too) and then propel people past ranks that they can handle, to fill in the slots.
