Lee Loadall 2 shotshell loading advice for a novice.

[Old Syko]

I've loaded an unbelievable number of metallic cartridges for over 50 years but haven't loaded shotshells for at least 40 years and then it was on an old Texan loader. Plain and simple, I know what I don't know so please tell me anything you can to help. Young man here wants to start loading shotshells on a budget and came to me for advice. Will this Lee get him started or should he put together a bit more money and get something better. If he takes to this like I think he will I would think he will find a way to get the biggest and baddest someday but he needs to learn the basics first. I have a bunch of powder and even some primers and shot to donate and will work with him until he has a handle on things and I don't think that will take long. Thanks for any advice to help him on his future addictive journey.

 

[4651feeder]

You knowwww I had one of those in 20 ga. and felt I just had to upgrade to a used Versamec due to the shame I was made to feel when talking reloading among my peers. Gave it to my brother who loads 12 ga on a Grabber (so he does know there is better out there) and he still uses it a couple times a month to this day. It does the job..... but while doing so, some feel it comes with a heavy cost to one's pride.

 

[Old Syko]

You knowwww I had one of those in 20 ga. and felt I just had to upgrade to a used Versamec due to the shame I was made to feel when talking reloading among my peers. Gave it to my brother who loads 12 ga on a Grabber (so he does know there is better out there) and he still uses it a couple times a month to this day. It does the job..... but while doing so, some feel it comes with a heavy cost to one's pride.

LMAO!!! Gotcha! I must say, I'm not a lee fan other than their factory crimp dies and I think they should be used whenever possible. This is sort of why I asked the question. This guy is going to be so proud to produce his own stuff I don't think brand names are going to matter. I just want to make sure whatever he gets has the ability to produce good quality ammo.

 

[4651feeder]

Have LEE dies and two turret presses myself for what little metallic loading is done here anymore, I'm not badmouthing LEE as a whole.

On my 600 Jr and Versamec I can load a box every 7 minutes with components set up in bins which is a good speed for me. Then again I had a fellow shooter recently buy a MEC 9000 series while saying the single stages were far too slow for what little time he had, so I guess it's all relative. Pretty sure with the LEE, you don't even want that speed/time thang to come up in conversation.

That model of LEE has very little resale value, so if one wants to upgrade.... I understand one's desire to purchase it because of the initial low investment; but if money is really that tight should one be buying the press in the first place and if they do it's likely they are going to upgrade if they don't loose interest and if they do upgrade, would they have been better off buying a single stage with some recoupable value to use towards the upgrade.... ??

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Regardless of the press he ends up going with, the most important thing is to very carefully inspect and sort the spent hulls. Many hulls look the same on the outside, but are different on the inside. The type and height of the internal base wad is the most important factor and all brands have changed over the years. These minor differences WILL cause big problems when it comes time to load if he didn't accurately identify and sort them. Each hull type requires a different recipe for everything to fit into the hull correctly and you must have exactly the right amount of hull space left for the crimp - too much or too little can cause an assortment of problems. If he only has one or two types of recent production hulls, he won't have much trouble. If he has a wide variety of hulls then it could get very difficult. Unfortunately, there is no single good source for identifying hull types. The Lyman manual has cutaway drawings and is probably the best, but it doesn't list anywhere near all of them. Once he has an understanding of the terminology, the Hodgdon website can be helpful too. I must have over a dozen different hull types that I have loaded and the learning curve is steep - it can make you want to pull your hair out when you have hulls that don't fit any of the descriptions in a particular manual. If you and he can't identify a hull, just set it off to the side and save it because sometimes they turn out to be hidden gems later.

The outside of the hull may not matter (hi or low brass) if the inside is the same. Winchester AA-compression formed hulls are an example of that.

The brand printed on the shell may not matter since there are several brands that just buy empty hulls and then load them. The empty hulls were all made by someone else. Cheddite is an example of this.

The crimp type and exact case length varies too, but these are generally less of a problem. Federal will use slightly different hull lengths for different loadings even though everything else about the hull is exactly the same. Sometimes you use the same data and just have to adjust the pre-crimp and final crimp - sucks on a progressive, but not such a big deal on a single stage press. A simple press will remove a lot of the frustration of learning and will also make it easier to see what needs to be changed to accommodate the different hulls. With a progressive, there is so much going on that you can easily screw things up or make a mess - spilling shot and powder everywhere.

 

[Old Syko]

AmmoManAaron, this is the kind of info I can understand since I'm adamant about sorting brass by headstamp for the same reasons. Since I haven't been loading shotshells I use factory ammo for what little use I give a scatter gun. I have a collection of a few buckets of empty Fiocchi hulls of the same type he's welcome to for a start so sorting will be something to consider in the future when he comes across other brands.

He and I both ordered books that will be here in 2 days and he ordered the Lee press along with more shot and since I have a supply of powder and a few really old primers, all we need to figure out now is which powder and we need to choose a wad.

Anything else we need to look out for to stay safe?

 

[Dakota]

I've loaded thousands of shotshells over the past several years. I started on a Lee LoadAll and it's a good way to learn and take your time. I certainly wouldn't worry about what anyone thought and as far as that goes, who's going to stand there and watch you. If he really likes reloading after learning the basics on the Loadall, then he can move up to something progressive if he shoots enough to need it.

 

[4651feeder]

While you don't mention the brand of powder.... you may also find these two sites useful for load data:
Alliant Powder - Reloader's Guide
Put a bead on shotgun reloading data | Hodgdon Reloading

 

[Old Syko]

Guys thanks for everything. We've both been reading, him on the puter and and me my manuals. Have a new Lyman manual coming. We both still have some questions but when we get our junk collected I figure at least some answers may be obvious. We couldn't care less about what people have to say about our choices in equipment. My 50+ year collection of metallic equipment has every color of the rainbow and some that no longer exist so brand loyalty doesn't exist for me and I'm passing that along.

One question I still have is about wads. There weren't but a handful of different ones 45 years ago now every load seems to list many different offerings. Gotta keep reading. Fiber wads and paper hulls were still prevalent back in my day.

 

[Wolfhound]

One nice thing about the Load All 2 it is super easy to change gauges and the conversion kits are cheap. I use one for both 16 and 20 gauge. It takes about 5-10 minutes to switch from one to the other. I use a MEC for 12 gauge.

 

[kennedy759]

I started with a lee for 16 ga, to problems, came with a complete set of powder and shot bushings. I since have moved up to a progressive. If I was starting out again I would go with the lee again. I am keeping mine in case my grandson wants to take up reloading

 

[singlesix]

Guys thanks for everything. We've both been reading, him on the puter and and me my manuals. Have a new Lyman manual coming. We both still have some questions but when we get our junk collected I figure at least some answers may be obvious. We couldn't care less about what people have to say about our choices in equipment. My 50+ year collection of metallic equipment has every color of the rainbow and some that no longer exist so brand loyalty doesn't exist for me and I'm passing that along.

One question I still have is about wads. There weren't but a handful of different ones 45 years ago now every load seems to list many different offerings. Gotta keep reading. Fiber wads and paper hulls were still prevalent back in my day.

Ref wads: key point you have two types of shells, straight or tapered hulls which take different type of wads, ie wad for a tapered hull vs. straight hull. Within these two types of wads you have a wide choice of brands and types; the reloading manual provides recipes for the most common combos: WAA Hull, CB-1200 Wad, Cheddite Primes, Red Dot Powder and so forth.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

He and I both ordered books that will be here in 2 days and he ordered the Lee press along with more shot and since I have a supply of powder and a few really old primers, all we need to figure out now is which powder and we need to choose a wad.

Anything else we need to look out for to stay safe?

Sorry I've been away for a few days. Your post brings up some other points.

You mention old primers. I use a lot of old primers and there is nothing at all wrong with that. BUT do NOT confuse the old Federal 209 with the newer Federal 209A primer - they are vastly different and not interchangeable. If your primers are the old Federal 209, you will have to look in older manuals for data. I have data and can share if needed. I'm currently using Federal 209 primers in a couple of loads. Be sure to positively identify your old primers, some are interchangeable and some are not. For example, Rem 97* and Rem 209P are perfectly interchangeable even though their names are completely different. The Rem 97-4 is a special mild primer generally used in .410 and 28ga and is not interchangeable even though it's name is similar.

Primers without a covered or sealed flash hole should not be used with ball or other fine grained powders. The kernels get into the primer and can cause issues with the cup backing out, cratering, or rupturing (false high pressure sign, but can jam up a gun). Save those primers for use with traditional flake powders such as Red Dot and Green Dot.

Fiocchi hulls are a good place to start in my experience. They are versatile (wide variety of data) and crimp well. They do not last as long as compression formed hulls like Remington STS or old Win-AA, but are perfectly useable and can usually be gotten for free.

Wait until you get your manuals and do some reading and potential load selection before ordering wads. You will see a lot of data for 7/8oz, 1oz, and 1 1/8 oz loads. The amount of shot you want to shoot will determine your wad selection to some degree. Your Fiocchi hulls are straight wall hulls (vs. tapered on the inside like the old Win-AA or Remington STS). Generally, you use straight wads for straight hulls and tapered wads for tapered hulls, but there is a fair bit of data for tapered wads in straight hulls too. You can't/shouldn't load straight hull wads in a tapered hull because you probably won't get the wad firmly seated on the powder (bad) and the wad can seat unevenly or crumple unevenly when it gets to the tapered portion of the hull (also bad). One of my preferred loads uses a Claybuster CB1100-12 (clone of a Winchester tapered wad) in a Fiocchi straight wall hull and it loads and shoots well. I generally prefer Winchester-type tapered wads because they load easy and are more versatile than most straight hull wads.

The manuals should be broken up into sections: gauge, then shot weight, followed by hull-type within that weight section. Then you will have subsections within that weight/hull which lists load combinations that generate a specific velocity (important consideration for trap). The manuals are generally good about giving variations of a load such as different primers with a particular powder and wad combo or a particular wad with a number of different powder and primer options. Since I have a lot of different powders on hand for my metallic cartridge loading, wad selection always seems to be the biggest limiting option for me when I'm looking at potential loads. Powder weight will vary a little bit between primer choices, but some will be the same in a particular load combination. Just because a primer is interchangeable in one particular load combination does not mean it is interchangeable in other loads. If your manual shows pressure readings, that will help illustrate the differences. Some powders show big responses to primer changes, but others will show relatively little difference with only a half grain change in powder keeping things in line. Compared to metallic cartridge guns, shotguns don't have a lot of leeway between squib/blooper loads, proper "bang" loads, and overpressure "kaboom" loads. That said, when using a machine, the powder for shotguns is measured by volume and the powder weight "as-dropped" will often vary + or - a few tenths of a grain from the ideal "recipe" weight. If you are doing loads for the various clay shooting games or upland general purpose hunting, the powder variance won't cause a problem. If you want to load "full-house" buckshot, slugs, or turkey loads, then I would recommend weighing each charge since you are going to be close to max pressure. Weighing each charge when doing slug loads will also get you better accuracy since minor velocity changes affect the rainbow trajectory of the slug quite a bit.

Loading for shotguns seems pretty simple at first given how primitive shotgun shells are, but when you finally get into picking loads you find that there are a lot more variables at play than in metallic cartridge loading.

P.S. - with modern plastic wads, wad pressure is not a big deal. Just make sure the wad is firmly seated against the powder. I like about 10 pounds of wad pressure, but some people like essentially zero wad pressure. The old nitro card/fiber wad loading is a lot different and demanded close attention to wad pressure (and usually quite a bit of it!)

 

[Old Syko]

AmmoManAaron I really appreciate the response since you just answered a couple more of my questions. I have on hand examples of more different powders than some here realize ever existed and our intent is to use an many of these as possible. I've also dug out 3 old manuals I had from the late 60s and early 70s that offer some real good info for where we intend to start. Presently have the press, shot, much older powder, and 3 different older primers. No wads yet and not willing to push things until I know we're making the right choice.

After loading hundreds of thousands of metallic rounds over the years I've learned what not to do and won't go there. All help is greatly appreciated.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

AmmoManAaron I really appreciate the response since you just answered a couple more of my questions. I have on hand examples of more different powders than some here realize ever existed and our intent is to use an many of these as possible. I've also dug out 3 old manuals I had from the late 60s and early 70s that offer some real good info for where we intend to start. Presently have the press, shot, much older powder, and 3 different older primers. No wads yet and not willing to push things until I know we're making the right choice.

After loading hundreds of thousands of metallic rounds over the years I've learned what not to do and won't go there. All help is greatly appreciated.

Sure thing

Let me know if you have any more questions or need any help cross-referencing your old primers. Even if you don't use any of the load data, the old manuals like what you have can be a real wealth of information for someone just getting started. I'll look forward to hearing your updates as you help your young friend get started.