Innovative Tactical Concetps-Richmond Indiana

[4sarge]

Stop by Hagerstown-- I'll buy you a cup of coffee (or a beer whichever)

They actually sell Beer in Hagerstown Will wonders never cease

 

[rhino]

I can't stand it anymore. I have to say something, but I'm going to phrase it in general terms.

It doesn't matter what merits the product has if the salesman does everything in his power to alienate his potential customers. If a product really does speak for itself, then the salesman might consider doing less speaking, especially when the rhetoric and attitude of each and every iteration makes it worse and serves only to confirm the suspicions and opinions of those who have significant doubts about the vendor of the product.

The product(s) which are ostensibly the focus of this topic could very well be the greatest thing since sliced bread. The problem is that the vendor does not instill even the slightest bit of confidence in most experienced consumers. This was painfully true through several episodes on the Tactics & Training forum on GlockTalk and continues here, with mostly different people involved.

There are plenty of vendors of comparable products and services. Some may be inferior and I'm certain that many are far superior. Given that, why would I (or any other consumer) be motivated to patronize someone who seems to go out of their way to make me not want to buy their product?

I suspect the answer may involve a either a lack of self-awareness or an unrealistic self-image in such cases (not just this situation). It seems increasingly obvious to me that this is not about the products themselves, but about the vendor, who seem to just not get it. I don't think he (or those in similar situations) realize how their web site is perceived by the average person seeking services in this industry. I don't think he is aware of how negatively the hubris he displays on this and other forums is perceived by those same potential customers.

I don't believe that he (or again, those like him) will ever take the time to reflect and do some self-examination. Instead, we will receive another overly defensive response that focuses on some minutiae contained in this message, making it clear that the real message has gone unheard.

The lack of self-awareness is the key to this problem, not the nature or quality of the services.

And now I shall prepare to regret having written any of this.

 

[Hiram Abiff]

They actually sell Beer in Hagerstown Will wonders never cease

Yeah, we found a "case", and are saving it for a special event. HOWEVER the sidewalks get rolled up at 10:30!!

 

[JRN]

Indyninja,

I apologize for my lack of internet etiquette. This is my first time "chatting" and I do not intend to make a habit of this. I posted this because I wanted to let people know that there is excellent training at ITC. This is what I thought the internet and more specifically this message board was for. Again, I will not debate it with anyone nor will I compare it to anything else. It is not the system but the warrior applying that system that ultimately makes the difference. A true warrior seeks out training to improve his skills. Telling you about my experience is like me telling you what steak tastes like. If you have never had steak then you will not appreciate it until you try it yourself. How anyone can doubt that is beyond me. It seems some people on here have an agenda. Either they are trying to discredit the methods because they want to make their system or friends system look better or they don't want to come to the training because they are afraid it might challenge them. Either way your words hold no weight until you come see it for yourself. You will find the instructors there to be friendly. None of them berated people for how they did things. They simply asked that everyone have an open mind when training. Doesn't that seem fair. So far I have seen no negative posts from people who actually attended the training. The only negative posts I see are from people who are not willing to give it a try. That speaks volumes to me. If that is the kind of thing they teach at other schools then I do not want any part of them. A good teacher encourages his students to seek out knowledge in every aspect of life so their training does not stagnate. I learned about this training at the last Indy 1500 gun / knife show. I am an active duty police officer in Indiana though I will not divulge my department due to my current assignment. Indyninja, are you in any way affilated with the Indy Bujinkan? Thank you.

 

[hkhoosier]

If I go to Golden Corral on Steak Night and have never eaten steak before.... I might come away from that experience thinking Golden Corral is the best steak out there. Little would I know that the steak at Shulas, Sullivans, St Emo's or Ruth Chris' is far superior.

JRN thanks for the review. If you wouldn't mind please let us know where you have trained in the past. You instructor has made it clear in his messages that he feels his training is far superior to anything else out there. Would you agree?

Again, I will not debate it with anyone nor will I compare it to anything else. It is not the system but the warrior applying that system that ultimately makes the difference. A true warrior seeks out training to improve his skills. Telling you about my experience is like me telling you what steak tastes like.

 

[Shay]

Indyninja,

I apologize for my lack of internet etiquette. This is my first time "chatting" and I do not intend to make a habit of this. I posted this because I wanted to let people know that there is excellent training at ITC. This is what I thought the internet and more specifically this message board was for. Again, I will not debate it with anyone nor will I compare it to anything else. It is not the system but the warrior applying that system that ultimately makes the difference. A true warrior seeks out training to improve his skills. Telling you about my experience is like me telling you what steak tastes like. If you have never had steak then you will not appreciate it until you try it yourself. How anyone can doubt that is beyond me. It seems some people on here have an agenda. Either they are trying to discredit the methods because they want to make their system or friends system look better or they don't want to come to the training because they are afraid it might challenge them. Either way your words hold no weight until you come see it for yourself. You will find the instructors there to be friendly. None of them berated people for how they did things. They simply asked that everyone have an open mind when training. Doesn't that seem fair. So far I have seen no negative posts from people who actually attended the training. The only negative posts I see are from people who are not willing to give it a try. That speaks volumes to me. If that is the kind of thing they teach at other schools then I do not want any part of them. A good teacher encourages his students to seek out knowledge in every aspect of life so their training does not stagnate. I learned about this training at the last Indy 1500 gun / knife show. I am an active duty police officer in Indiana though I will not divulge my department due to my current assignment. Indyninja, are you in any way affilated with the Indy Bujinkan? Thank you.

Brian has repeatedly told us that what he teaches is superior to what is being taught at other schools. If this is true, why would any of his students train anywhere else? Further, if this is true, why would he want any of this students to train anywhere else? How many other schools did he recommend to you at this class you took?

Brian has "borrowed" many things from Tactical Response's and many other school's marketing and curriculum. Bringing an "open mind" to training is not a new concept and I can guarantee you that there are several other schools that advocate that you train with other good schools. I have yet to see Brian recommend anyone else's training other than his own. Again, why would he because his training is the best and he teaches things other schools don't because he teaches fighting and others teach only gun-centric junk that will get you hurt. Blah. Blah. Blah.

His relentless claims that he has "special" defensive tactics and in-fight gun access techniques gets old very quickly; especially given the fact that, despite his evasive posts to the contrary, he hasn't formally trained anywhere besides the NRA and Tactical Response. After all, why would he? All other programs are inferior. Blah. Blah. Blah.

I would like to take a class from Brian someday. Why? Because I'd like to know first-hand what he is teaching. Also, to be honest, because I'll train with just about anybody. I'm sure I would learn something.

With these facts in mind, ask yourself these two questions. Who has the open mind? Who has the ego?

Welcome to the forum.

 

[JRN]

hkhoosier,

I have trained in various martial arts for the past 29 years. I have not attended any gun schools outside of what I have been exposed to in police work. I will say that on my former department our qualifications were at the IPD/Marion County Range at Eagle Creek and I can say that the training was very high level compared to most agencies. I know that many of the instructors there as with my current department have been to some of the big name schools. I enjoyed the training at Eagle Creek because we did have scenarios dealing with drawing from concealment and moving and shooting. On my current department we train with our firearm once a month which is a lot more than many departments that I know of. I have no interest in being a competition marksman and I know from personal experience that I will not always have time to get to my weapon. I have had occasions where someone has reached into a pocket to retrieve a weapon and on those occasions I was able to neutralize the attack. On one occasion I got to the gun before the guy could clear his concealment (in his pants under his shirt). On another, I was able to spin the guy around fast enough to cause the knife to fly out of the jacket pocket or his hand (I don't know which). On both of those occasions, I was in uniform with a simple level 2 holster that was not covered by a concealment garment and in both those cases the suspects were within ten feet of me. My awareness was already up and I still did not have time to draw and shoot. People can talk all day long about their situational awareness being on but it is impossible for you to be 100% all the time. If that were the case, you wouldn't need to train. Many people neglect their physical skills believing that the firearm will always be available. As I said, I had one on my side with no obstruction and I was in a position where my awareness was already focused on the situation and I still was unable to get to it before these guys made their move. Now I realize that there are people with more experience out there and many I am sure are in much better shape than me. You may have been able to pull off a shot. But many of you I am sure know that people don't fall down and stop fighting like they do on TV when they are hit. Both of the individuals I delt with were not the finest athletic specimens and at the time I was in pretty good shape. I also practiced drawing my duty weapon 100 times daily while still in the patrol division. They still beat me to the draw and they put up a pretty good fight. I was fighting individuals who were on a mission and that mission was to get away from me even if that meant killing me to do so. So what if they did not think I was an armed police officer and they wanted my life. Can you imagine just how much more difficult it would have been. That is a position anyone can be in. I am not here to put down anyones training. If it works and you are able to protect yourself and your family then that is great. I was able to defend myself before I went to ITC. But the skills I learned at ITC are helping me to better my tactics and training. Again, the training is there for anyone who wants it. I suggest taking advantage of it. Thank you.

 

[JRN]

Shay VanVlymen,

As far as most of the movements involved in ITC's techniques, I know them to be derived from the martial arts. If this is what you are referring to, then perhaps TR borrowed those from someone else. If you are talking about the way the firearm comes out from under concealment, I may be wrong but I have been drawing my weapon this way for a long time and I never went to any of the schools mentioned. It seems there are not too many ways to draw a weapon from concealment. I also know that most every school out there professes their way to be the best. They have to. Who would want to train with someone if they did not have confidence in their system. Mr. LaMaster has put himself out there on video allowing people to see what his training is all about. I don't see to many other people sticking their neck out there that far. That takes confidence. Again, everyone is focused on what is being said, yet no one wants to step up to the challenge. You may be right, you may be wrong in the end none of this matters if you learn something from the experience that saves you or your loved ones life. You are right that I have not stepped out and trained in one of the big gun schools. As I said, some of the people involved in training on the police department have went to these schools and brought back lessons from their experience. Some of the experience has been valuable to me and I do apply it. I cannot tell you what came from where nor I care to know. All I care about is will this information save my butt. I look forward to seeing you in the class. Thank you.

 

[Hiram Abiff]

Again, everyone is focused on what is being said, yet no one wants to step up to the challenge.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Fenway has accepted an invitation to an up cominig class. As an outsider; with no dog in the fight, can't we agree to disagree until Mr. Fenway returns with impression of the class, at which time arguments of bias and non-bias can start.

 

[Shay]

Shay VanVlymen,

As far as most of the movements involved in ITC's techniques, I know them to be derived from the martial arts. If this is what you are referring to, then perhaps TR borrowed those from someone else. If you are talking about the way the firearm comes out from under concealment, I may be wrong but I have been drawing my weapon this way for a long time and I never went to any of the schools mentioned. It seems there are not too many ways to draw a weapon from concealment. I also know that most every school out there professes their way to be the best. They have to. Who would want to train with someone if they did not have confidence in their system. Mr. LaMaster has put himself out there on video allowing people to see what his training is all about. I don't see to many other people sticking their neck out there that far. That takes confidence. Again, everyone is focused on what is being said, yet no one wants to step up to the challenge. You may be right, you may be wrong in the end none of this matters if you learn something from the experience that saves you or your loved ones life. You are right that I have not stepped out and trained in one of the big gun schools. As I said, some of the people involved in training on the police department have went to these schools and brought back lessons from their experience. Some of the experience has been valuable to me and I do apply it. I cannot tell you what came from where nor I care to know. All I care about is will this information save my butt. I look forward to seeing you in the class. Thank you.

How many other schools did he recommend at his class?

 

[indyninja]

A better question might be how many times have you trained in true reality based training with a firearm Brian. It appears your answer could probably fit on one line and yet you are the person teaching this stuff. :rolleyesedit:

My question to those who have had firearms training, how many of you have trained in true reality based training?

Yes someone from the board is stepping up and maybe we can put some of this to rest.

Again, everyone is focused on what is being said, yet no one wants to step up to the challenge.

 

[rhino]

As an aside, I'd like to point out that the defensive use of the pistol or other firearm is as much a "martial art" as anything that originated in east Asia.

 

[sjstill]

In every handgun class I've taken, the Tueller drill is always discussed, and most often a warning is given that you likely WILL be cut - how bad depends upon your response(s).

When I took Steve Tarani's edged weapon defense class, the Tueller drill was stressed even more (I think; I've slept since then). The "21 foot rule" needs to be changed to (minimum) 30 feet, is the consensus of most knowledgeable trainers these days.

At one class, I made what could either be a brilliant or stupid move by charging the attacker while drawing my [training] pistol. Really effed up his OODA loop, but I don't know that I'd try that for real.

Moving off the line of attack was always the preferred option. No big secret there.

Time and money-wise, I can only take 1 class a year. I've already committed to Awerbuck's shotgun class in August.

I really hope Mike has a good review of this class.

Being a police officer now, I want every edge I can get. No class I have attended has EVER stated their way is the way. Every single one of them has said it is a way; it may not work for you, but give it a try. But, here we have, from the mean streets of Richmond, IN, THE best combo of unarmed/armed combatives the world has ever seen. Only, we're too guncentric to realize.

There isn't much new under the sun.

I declined the offer to train for free for the same reason I don't waste time or money on those ads in some of the gun rags. You've seen them; "Former Mossad/SeAL/Delta Force/Green Beret/Cub Scout teaches you what the US Military doesn't want you to know". Sorry, but my ******** detector goes off.

There, I said it.

When first approached a couple years ago about hosting ITC at Eagle Creek, I considered it. Then I started checking around. Basically comes from out of nowhere with ties to a couple SWAT team members (is Brian a cop, btw? not that it really matters, but he does like to ride their coat-tails) and a lot of martial arts experience. Including ninja training.

I'm not picking on Brian, not really. I just think he has a 10 foot tall ego crammed into a 5'-6" frame. And that's cool. Most instructors I've met have egos. Part of the package.

All of the above are MY opinions and mine alone. If you don't like 'em, well I think this forum has an ignore feature.

 

[indyninja]

How do you expect him to recommend other schools when he hasn't trained with anyone?

How many other schools did he recommend at his class?

 

[4sarge]

I declined the offer to train for free for the same reason I don't waste time or money on those ads in some of the gun rags. You've seen them; "Former Mossad/SeAL/Delta Force/Green Beret/Cub Scout teaches you what the US Military doesn't want you to know". Sorry, but my ******** detector goes off

OK, I've had enough, "What's your problem with Cub Scouts ?

 

[bigcraig]

Bigcraig, I mean you no disrespect sir, but how long have you been training? Dude, it was a drill to get you to realize that you cannot draw and shoot if there is no “threat”. It is also a drill to get you to see that you cannot REACT to someone with a knife within 10 feet and draw your gun and shoot the attacker. I was “overacting” for a reason. And that reason was to try and get you to react before you saw a weapon and shoot me. It was a drill… nothing more, nothing less. So, since you brought it up, were you able to successfully draw and shoot from concealment? Did your Spidey reflexes react that quickly? My guess is not. Come and take the training and you will see FIRST HAND that you cannot draw your gun in time and shoot against an attacker who has a knife and makes the first move. And, you will not always see the weapon before it is in motion.
____________________
Brian K. LaMaster - President, Innovative Tactical Concepts
Instructor - Counter Force International

I will attempt to address this, as it is directed at me.

First, I have taken only one serious firearms class, Strike Tactical, instructor Henk Iverson. The rhino set this class up for some of his "chosen" friends. Excellent class taught by someone who has used his tactics MANY times in real life, thus has credibility. I am not implying that a person who has no military or LEO experience can not also be a good firearms instructor, but when it comes to real CQB type tactics and distances, it is best to learn from someone who has actually done, several times. IMHO of course.

The main problem I have with your drill and also the reason why I sort of made fun of it, is due to the fact that is unrealistic to some one who takes their personal saftey seriously. Situational awareness trumps ALL, everything else is simply academic in how you respond to a threat.

To answer the question on whether or not I was able to draw my weapon during your "drill", yep I sure did, after I had backed up several feet creating distance between myself and the attacker, I also threw up my off hand and forearm as a gaurd, moved off the line of attack and brought my weapon to bear on the attacker. I did this because thats what I have been trained to do. To be honest, I knew this before I took Henks class but having him there showing me the correct mechanics and helping me diagnose issues I might have had was worth every penny.

All that being said, if you think that your training is superior, I think you need to take a class with someone else, other than the small sampling that you have had. The fact that you are incorporating your martial arts background into your "tactics" is nothing new nor innovated, to say the least.

I sincerly doubt I will venture out your way to take a class. I am fortunate enough to live very close to Boone County, and Sheriff Ken brings in a great group on instructors every year, it is just a matter of me signing up for them. I also already have a class scheduled for later this fall, so my training budget and schedule are full for the year.

I will offer this advice, find someone else to do your marketing.

 

[obijohn]

I declined the offer to train for free for the same reason I don't waste time or money on those ads in some of the gun rags. You've seen them; "Former Mossad/SeAL/Delta Force/Green Beret/Cub Scout teaches you what the US Military doesn't want you to know". Sorry, but my ******** detector goes off.

i'm with 4sarge here, what's your beef with the cub scouts? i don't know about those other wuss groups, but if a cub scout says it's so, it is so.

disclaimer--feeble attempt at humor--can't let rhino tell all the jokes. hehe.

on a serious note, sometimes training is valuable if you learn some things NOT to do in a "situation". i was going to write "dynamic critical incident" but i got that one from rob pincus, so i wrote "situation". hehe.

 

[sjstill]

Cub Scouts is cool, just couldn't think of another HS/LD entity to put in there (brain cramp from writing too much....).

 

[Scutter01]

The only thing I remember about being in the Cub Scouts was looking up dirty words in the dictionary to see if they were in there.

 

[obijohn]

The only thing I remember about being in the Cub Scouts was looking up dirty words in the dictionary to see if they were in there.

even learning how to use the dictionary is valuable. plus you learned some new dirty words. win-win. hehe.