Information Request: Cast bullets in 9mm Luger

[ntrngr]

Looking for advice. I'm an experienced reloader and have done lots of work with cast in 44mag, 357mag, 30-30, 32 special (and a whole lot more that you would never think of trying cast bullets in...)

I'm wondering just how close to jacketed performance I can get with cast in a 9mm? The velocities don't seem to be beyond a plain base RN bullet. I'm just wondering how hard your alloy was and what kind of problems you had. Thanks!

 

[Joe Williams]

I've had very mixed results with 125 and 115 grain bullets. Can get the accuracy ok, but sometimes leading can be an issue, sometimes not. It's not just a function of velocity, it's a high pressure round.

I've had excellent results with 147 grain bullets, though.

 

[ntrngr]

I've had very mixed results with 125 and 115 grain bullets. Can get the accuracy ok, but sometimes leading can be an issue, sometimes not. It's not just a function of velocity, it's a high pressure round.

I've had excellent results with 147 grain bullets, though.

147gr? Really? I have a 4 cavity mold that throws a 158gr .358 Elmer Keith plain base. I've threatened to get a sizing die and squeeze them down to .356 and try that but I figured they wouldn't stabilize since the 9mm Luger was really designed for 115gr bullets.

I just purchased a 6 cavity mold that throws a 124gr round nose. Any predictions?

 

[Joe Williams]

147gr? Really? I have a 4 cavity mold that throws a 158gr .358 Elmer Keith plain base. I've threatened to get a sizing die and squeeze them down to .356 and try that but I figured they wouldn't stabilize since the 9mm Luger was really designed for 115gr bullets.

I just purchased a 6 cavity mold that throws a 124gr round nose. Any predictions?

147s perform really well out of 9mm in terms of accuracy. I don't know how 158s would do. It would be an interesting experiment, anyways, if you could find some load data to start with.

As for the 124s, I've had best results by not loading anywhere near max. Worth a try, anyway!

 

[ntrngr]

147s perform really well out of 9mm in terms of accuracy. I don't know how 158s would do. It would be an interesting experiment, anyways, if you could find some load data to start with.

As for the 124s, I've had best results by not loading anywhere near max. Worth a try, anyway!

Loading data? We don't need no stiniking loading data! ...and you won't find any for 158gr in a 9mm.

Actually, I make up my own. I just use some (not so, sometimes) common sense and look at bullet weight percentages and apply them to powder charges. Picking parts of your gun out of your forehead is never fun. The thing you have to watch is that some powders are just plain schizophrenic. You never know what they'll do. (700x, Bullseye) When I'm pioneering with lead pistol loads, I stick with Unique. Heck, I could be happy with lead bullets and Unique in everything from a 38 special to a 30-06. But, I ramble...

 

[IndyGunworks]

when loading cast for a 9mm i would think a gas check is a must due to the high pressures. that said with a gas check the only real issue would be leading and i dont think thats much of a concern as long as you arent shooting out of a polygonal rifled barrel (glocks hks and some others). as far as hardness everything i have read says the typical lead to zinc mix, not super hard, but i dont know much about casting...
i would worry about 158's.... will spike the pressure unless you load way down, and then accuracy will be horrible

 

[IndyGunworks]

and 147 grain bullets are pretty common, esp if you want subsonic ammo.

 

[pdg45acp]

I was loading the Lyman 147gr 9mm to 950 fps.

It was ok, I used it in USPSA Production and IDPA for 3 years.

I've gone back to 115gr FMJ in 9mm and I'm concentrating my casting efforts exclusively on 45acp and 38 special.

 

[m_deaner]

when loading cast for a 9mm i would think a gas check is a must due to the high pressures. that said with a gas check the only real issue would be leading and i dont think thats much of a concern as long as you arent shooting out of a polygonal rifled barrel (glocks hks and some others). as far as hardness everything i have read says the typical lead to zinc mix, not super hard, but i dont know much about casting...
i would worry about 158's.... will spike the pressure unless you load way down, and then accuracy will be horrible

I've never heard of using a gas check on 9mm, and I don't think it's necessary. I've shot thousands of 125-grain and 147-grain lead 9mm, none with gas checks, and have had only traces of leading that clean up in a minute. All of my 9mm is shot out of two Glocks with the (gasp) stock polyagonal barrel.

As for hardness, it's important in 9mm - most bullet makers shoot for around 19bhn.

 

[IndyGunworks]

There you go, I have always heard that with the higher pressure rounds gas checks are desired... I for the most part shoot berry's plated bullets so i dont have to worry about that.

M_Deaner, what is the differance in hardness when compared to say cast 38 special rounds?

 

[m_deaner]

M_Deaner, what is the differance in hardness when compared to say cast 38 special rounds?

It depends on the bulletmaker, really. I also load 38-special and like a softer bullet, about 12-14 bhn.

There is a common misconception that harder lead bullets have less problems with leading. Really, the hardness of the bullet you use should be a function of the pressure generated by the load. You want the lead to be soft enought to expand, or "obturate" the bore when fired - if you get gas blow-by you'll get leading. Hard bullets aren't as good at obturating the bore at low pressures. On the other hand, a soft bullet driven at high pressures will lead the bore.

Here is a formula for determining BHN that I found on the web a while back, can't remember the source:
Optimum BHN = CUPS / (1422 x .90)

If you cast, you can tailor the alloy hardness to the pressure. Keep in mind the lead will actually harden a bit once it has "seasoned"; spent some time out of the mold.

With 9mm, 40cal/10mm, you pretty much always want a hard bullet because of the high pressures.

Keep in mind, hardness is only one consideration to prevent leading. You also need to run a cool-burning powder, and make sure the bullet is properly sized to your bore (9mm Glocks like .356, for example). And then there is the type of bullet lube (not going there...).

 

[IndyGunworks]

Ok so let me ask this trying to defend my gas checks comment although i could be off base here....
the harder lead is more expensive and if you are using just plain wheel weights you are shooting sofer lead, since its soft lead in a higher pressure round, you will want gas checks to prevent obturation and excess leading....

 

[m_deaner]

Ok so let me ask this trying to defend my gas checks comment although i could be off base here....
the harder lead is more expensive and if you are using just plain wheel weights you are shooting sofer lead, since its soft lead in a higher pressure round, you will want gas checks to prevent obturation and excess leading....

You are correct - harder lead alloys are more expensive due to the higher cost of alloying elements (antimony and tin).

It's not unheard of to use gas checks in lead 357 magnum loads.... really, you weren't totally off base. I could see a gas check used in 9mm if you really didn't want to spend time doctoring the alloy to optimal hardness, but I have no personal experience with this and haven't heard about anyone using gas checks in 9mm.

Edit: and even with gas checks, you want obturation. It's always a good thing.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Sorry... saw a big word and wanted to sound smart by using it... i meant blow by which vaporizes lead particles off the base of the round leading to increase leading of the bore.
guess i shouldnt try so hard.

 

[red_zr24x4]

I've been using wheel weights casting 115gr. for the 9mm. using titegroup at about 4.4gr no problems very minimal leading
kenny

 

[IndyGunworks]

define very minimal leading... do you run a brush through every 100 rounds... or every 1k rounds.... i shoot glocks and dont have the desire to buy a casting set up... let alone figure out how to make certain hardnesses of lead.... but minimal leading is a bit vague... at what point does leading become an issue for you? not doggin on you, just fishing for more information..... ntrngr sorry if you feel as if i hijacked your thread... i will start a new one if you would like but i feel as if all of us contributing to this thread are learning at least a little something.

 

[ntrngr]

define very minimal leading... do you run a brush through every 100 rounds... or every 1k rounds.... i shoot glocks and dont have the desire to buy a casting set up... let alone figure out how to make certain hardnesses of lead.... but minimal leading is a bit vague... at what point does leading become an issue for you? not doggin on you, just fishing for more information..... ntrngr sorry if you feel as if i hijacked your thread... i will start a new one if you would like but i feel as if all of us contributing to this thread are learning at least a little something.

No, no! Absolutely not! Excellent discussion. Carry on, please!

I'm especially soaking up the discussion on gas checks. My rule of thumb is that as you approach or exceed 1200 fps, you'll need them, however, thats in rifle cartridges. I don't even have a gas checked 38 or 44Mag bullet. I've used near full power loads in the 44Mag with a plain base and still retained accuracy.

I know that cool burning powder is a must. The slower the better, usually, to attain your pressure. I figured Unique would be my best bet, however, I'm currently ready to try 4756 and 7625, both good performers when using a 22 Hornet and cast bullets.

Somebody said, "Lubrication, not going there..." Please, go there.

Thanks every one for contributing, and, please, continue!

I did most of my work before the age of the internet (and before I was 20). I think I was the only person in the county that did much real research. Most of the "reloaders" that I know are not reloaders at all, they are "shell stuffers". You know the "Find a load that works, load 'em up" kind of guys. Nothing wrong with that, but I like to experiment. In fact, I like to experiment with components, charges and combinations that are known "not to work". Its quite amazing what you can come up with.

I find all the discussion oddly inspiring. Odd because I've just never been able to discuss it with anyone other than my father and inspiring because I find there are people that actually EXPERIMENT. Wow! Hijaak my threads anytime! I'm loving it!

 

[red_zr24x4]

I shoot 200-500 rounds a weekend using wheel weights, homemade lube in a sig 226.
After I shoot the cast bullets I run about 10 jacketed through it. I clean it every time I get home, run a brush through it 3-4 times and no lead.
The lube is bees wax, paraffin, and Vaseline, I don't have a recipe we go by consistency.
hope that helps clear it up some if not I'll go into it a little more
Kenny

 

[Old Syko]

After I shoot the cast bullets I run about 10 jacketed through it.

This is a practice that should be avoided as it serves only to destroy any possible accuracy and in extreme cases can become very unsafe to the shooter.

Any firearm that is to be used with cast slugs is best relegated to cast only. As an example, my favorite firearm for cast only use is a Marlin 444P. Doesn't matter how much I shoot, it will never get anything more than a clean patch passed down the bore. The load I use is an RD300GC slug that I cast myself, sized to .432, with enough 4198 behind it to push this 300 grain slug to 2080fps from a 16" ported barrel.

I see so many references to commercial cast slugs causing leading and for the most part this is caused not by the wrong hardness level of the slug, but by too small sizing or hard commercial lube. The lube used by most commercial manufacturers has to be hard enough to withstand the rigors of shipping and therefore is of the wrong consistency to properly lube the bore. If you pick up a cast bullet and the lube doesn't try to hold the slug to your fingers, it is too hard. I use a mix of anhydrous lanolin, alox, bees wax, and a bit of crayon for color. The mix of lanolin and alox seems to give me the best of both worlds of lubrication and continued protection. For a good education on lube properties and recipe variations, I'd suggest looking at the cast boolit forum. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php