Indiana Sons of Liberty

[churchmouse]

LT6>ISL

 

[ISL State CO]

Ah now I see why this old thread got bumped, you're trying to get your 50 Quality Posts so you can bid on something in the classified sections, come on fess up.

LOL Didn't know there was a classified section.

 

[ISL State CO]

Aaron, I'm jumping without reading about 1/2 of the responses so maybe this has been addressed: 1)You said one of the reasons for the ISL is to defend the state against invasion, yet you say the ISL would never TRESPASS even in combat against those invaders 2)You said there is no oath etc and members are free to come and go, even in combat. Given points 1&2 I just can't take the ISL seriously as a defensive force for the state. If that is your intention you really should just reenlist. You did mention a priority list of family; community; state, so like some others have said just forming a "mutual support group" sounds more appropriate. Anyway, IIRC SCOTUS ruled in the late 19th century, that PRIVATE militias are not constitutional. Nothing personal, you sound like a good neighbor to someone, I just think the enterprise doesn't make sense.

The term "private militia" is kind of an oxymoron considering that our Founding Fathers viewed everyone as a member of the militia, and therefore, were not under the control of a private individual, ie, unorganized. And at the same time, those militia members (insert The People) were our neighbors, our friends, the store owners, etc. I don't see how 234+ years has changed any of that, even though the government and the media both would love to see the outright elimination of the 2nd Amendment, which does a pretty good job of spelling out who the militia is.

The SCOTUS ruling that you talk about I believe was the result of the Pinkerton's shooting a bunch of people in PA at a steel mill. In that instance, the Pinkerton's were basically hired guns, and not what I would consider a "militia".

 

[halfmileharry]

Why are all militia members always commanders and never corporals?

I'm guessing like most military organizations....Only those authorized to speak do so. Most of the time it's those of higher rank entrusted to relay the message the way intended...
It's been a while since I saw this thread. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[singlesix]

LOL Didn't know there was a classified section.

Long running joke for the regulars on this board.

 

[CathyInBlue]

LOL Didn't know there was a classified section.

You're not cleared to know that, because it's… classified.

 

[Vigilant]

He said "movie nights", it's been a LOONG time since I've seen Red Dawn, you think we can get a double feature, old and new?

 

[freekforge]

Where did you hear the igr only has 150 members? I believe the number is closer to 250ish. the brigade im "assigned" to has 35 soldiers now i think. they do more than SAR and are trained in weapons handling and you have to qualify at AT. Monthly drill isn't always search and rescue this past one we set up radios across warsaw to practice using tthe new mobile units and did some more medical training after that.

And we take an official oath of enlistment and must obey the ucmj.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

Can you tell us more about the IGR? I am curious about the equipment you use. You speak of radios, weapons, first aid training. I have an old time notion of a militia as being true "citizen soldiers" who provide and train with their own gear, without pay, until the state calls them to duty. I have heard that the IGR members buy their own uniforms, but use the same as the regular military. I kinda miss being a soldier, (U.S. Army retired/disabled) and am interested in the idea of helping out as a disaster response volunteer in anything like a C.E.R.T. or a militia, be it IGR or even something like the Sons of Liberty or Oath Keepers. Problem is, I couldn't really do much as I walk with a cane most of the time. I have a very capable 4x4 truck and my own firearm... I picture myself as some sort of a militia 88M, but I'm probably just a red-neck.


I have to admit, I'm not up to AR 600-1 standards... I like my facial hair I've grown since I retired...

 

[bingley]

Are you in any relation to the Indiana Sons of Anarchy?

 

[daddyusmaximus]

Are you in any relation to the Indiana Sons of Anarchy?

No, but that was a good show.

I'm not in anything right now. I'm just a retired cripple, but I am not against joining any group to ban together and help in time of need. I miss belonging to a group that made a difference. I was one of those guys that drank the Army cool-aid, and believed I was doing good things for my country. I'd like to do something similar now, as a civie, but just don't want to get involved with any group that is plotting anything evil, and would draw the wrong kind of attention from our increasingly watchful government. So far, I have just kinda went about doing my own thing.

 

[freekforge]

Shoot me a pm and i can give you as much info as i can or put you in contact with someone who knows more than i do. I also have a tri fold thing i can mail you with the basics. And if you did enlist ar670-1 says no awesome facial hair my stache of awesomness had to go (it wasn't that great but still)

 

[Dead Duck]

Ok -
Count Me In!


But, only with a few conditions.

1. I want the rank of Corporal so you can call me "Corporal Punishment". Because it's cool.

2. No initiations. I had a real bad wedgie experience in Cub Scouts and still have the scar.

3. I would like to be in charge of building things and club signage. I'm a wiz with construction paper and a glue stick.

4. I may need a ride to the meetings cause my sister locked my bike up and still won't give me the combo.



When do we start?



Here's a sample of some of my work -

This was actually my sisters stand but I built it so got free drinks. It was worth it.




My sister did help me build the treehouse by lifting the heavy boards but she can't come up after it was finished. (this is why she locked my bike)

 

[GIJEW]

The term "private militia" is kind of an oxymoron considering that our Founding Fathers viewed everyone as a member of the militia, and therefore, were not under the control of a private individual, ie, unorganized. And at the same time, those militia members (insert The People) were our neighbors, our friends, the store owners, etc. I don't see how 234+ years has changed any of that, even though the government and the media both would love to see the outright elimination of the 2nd Amendment, which does a pretty good job of spelling out who the militia is.

The SCOTUS ruling that you talk about I believe was the result of the Pinkerton's shooting a bunch of people in PA at a steel mill. In that instance, the Pinkerton's were basically hired guns, and not what I would consider a "militia".

Cathy, this in answer to you too. The SCOTUS ruling I'm thinking about was from around 1880-1890 when a large social group paraded through parts of chicago, I believe, carrying their personal rifles as a demonstration of patriotism(?). When the matter went to court their defense was that they were exercising their rights under the 2A. SCOTUS said "private militias" weren't constitutional--read not protected by the 2A. I'm not saying that this wasn't another bad decision by the court, just citing it as I said:"if I recall (accurately)". I believe this case was mentioned in "That every man be armed" by Stephen Halbrook.

 

[ISL State CO]

I'm scratching my head on that one... If a group of people come out and protest, peaceably, then it's not considered a "militia", private or otherwise. But as soon as those same people pick up their guns and carry them on the same peaceable protest march, it's considered a "private militia". Well, it is Chicago.

 

[ISL State CO]

Alexander Hamilton warned that, “The continual necessity for his services (referring to the King and the government at that time) enhances the importance of the soldier (which was performing law enforcement for the King), and proportionally degrades the condition of the citizen. The military state (which could also be viewed as a "police state") becomes elevated above the civil.” (source: Federalist #8)

It's my opinion that the US has far too many alphabet soup organizations for the exact reason that Alexander Hamilton stated above. There are a lot of people that pat themselves on the back for being so smart and so eloquent because they are able to recall a court case about something very specific, which may or may not have any direct impact on the subject matter. To a degree, everyone will take things out of context so that it fits their thoughts, ideas and perceptions. I don't claim to know everything, in fact, I know that I have been wrong in the past. The difference is that I'm not afraid to admit if and when I'm wrong, nor am I afraid to do the research and learn, and change if necessary.

Now with regard to the legitimacy of the "militia", our Founding Fathers wanted the People of this country to be the last word on freedom and liberty, and NOT some Government body, which history has shown time and time again, can be corrupted and swayed. If you've ever gone through the selection process of jury duty, or sat in on zoning hearings, or had any involvement with local politics of any kind, then you've seen just how "self-important" some of these people are. IMO, the various organizations within Government are simply additional layers of insulation between the People and elected officials, so that We The People will be so busy cutting through red tape that our representation will be non-existent. Which brings me to the ISL...

From the beginning, we wanted to be an NGO, and we wanted to be an alternative to having another government alphabet soup organization. We do this from the heart, and not because of the interests of our wallet. Personally, I think the volunteers of the fire department, reserve deputy sheriff's, EMA, etc., are a subset of the militia, simply because they volunteer their time, they do it because of their dedication to their community. The ISL is no different, except that we have to provide all of our own equipment. The struggle is trying to find where we can best fit into the "helping our community" picture. Every county is different, and therefore, they have different needs. But the one area that there is a huge opening is through CERT. CERT provides a great starting point for community involvement, preparedness, organization, etc., but it is lacking some very critical parts, such as communications. Another hurdle is that not all counties will use CERT personnel for ANYTHING!!!!!! Whereas, other counties rely heavily on CERT personnel to perform a wide array of tasks. Either way, in the ISL, we push CERT pretty hard on our membership. So over the past 5 years, the ISL has taken CERT and made it our core. Not all of the members have gone through CERT training, but many of our manuals, meetings and FTX's all have some connection to CERT.

Some of you may now be asking... Why even have the ISL if all we are is a CERT group? Because CERT is not organized across the state. Just like the various militia groups in Indiana, CERT is active in pockets, and like I mentioned earlier, some counties want nothing to do with CERT. Some of that attitude may come from ignorance of what CERT is, and some of it may come from that fact that CERT isn't under the authority of any county officials. The whole function of CERT is to fill the void between a disaster and emergency services arriving. Without CERT, everyone is left to fend for themselves until the fire depart arrives. I typically use severe weather as an example of why emergency service couldn't get to the scene in a timely manner. For example, a long track tornado, blocked roads, services overwhelmed at various locations, etc. The idea is to get as many people as possible thinking "preparedness", and NOT government over-through. I'm sure there would be a few departments and agencies that would ***** because CERT personnel were on scene 2-3 hours (or days) before them, and the CERT personnel have already searched for victims, possibly extracted a couple of people, triaged everyone, and began treating the injured. If emergency service personnel get upset by that, then they need to ask themselves why they are even on the department. I thought the whole idea was to "help your community"? The various departments shouldn't get bent out of shape when someone helps them out. Many times, I've heard the excuse; CERT people don't have the same training! That's true, but without CERT, then who does have the training for those few hours when emergency services cannot get to the scene? If emergency services personnel get upset because they feel that I'd be doing their job. If that's that's the case, than please refer to the very first paragraph in this post.

The bottom line is, we're Americans, we're Hoosiers, we're human and we want to help with our community. Joining the military and going to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. to kill those people may work for Washington, but it doesn't work me. We have enough problems right here that need fixing, and that's what I'm working on. I'm NOT using tax dollars to do this, it's coming out of my own pocket. It's an effort from the heart and not because I have a flowing red cape with a big "S" on my chest. I'm doing this because I see the government getting WAY too big and there are people that want to help and they don't know where they can.

Fire extinguisher at the ready...

 

[GIJEW]

Alexander Hamilton warned that, “The continual necessity for his services (referring to the King and the government at that time) enhances the importance of the soldier (which was performing law enforcement for the King), and proportionally degrades the condition of the citizen. The military state (which could also be viewed as a "police state") becomes elevated above the civil.” (source: Federalist #8)

It's my opinion that the US has far too many alphabet soup organizations for the exact reason that Alexander Hamilton stated above. There are a lot of people that pat themselves on the back for being so smart and so eloquent because they are able to recall a court case about something very specific, which may or may not have any direct impact on the subject matter. To a degree, everyone will take things out of context so that it fits their thoughts, ideas and perceptions. I don't claim to know everything, in fact, I know that I have been wrong in the past. The difference is that I'm not afraid to admit if and when I'm wrong, nor am I afraid to do the research and learn, and change if necessary.

Now with regard to the legitimacy of the "militia", our Founding Fathers wanted the People of this country to be the last word on freedom and liberty, and NOT some Government body, which history has shown time and time again, can be corrupted and swayed. If you've ever gone through the selection process of jury duty, or sat in on zoning hearings, or had any involvement with local politics of any kind, then you've seen just how "self-important" some of these people are. IMO, the various organizations within Government are simply additional layers of insulation between the People and elected officials, so that We The People will be so busy cutting through red tape that our representation will be non-existent. Which brings me to the ISL...

From the beginning, we wanted to be an NGO, and we wanted to be an alternative to having another government alphabet soup organization. We do this from the heart, and not because of the interests of our wallet. Personally, I think the volunteers of the fire department, reserve deputy sheriff's, EMA, etc., are a subset of the militia, simply because they volunteer their time, they do it because of their dedication to their community. The ISL is no different, except that we have to provide all of our own equipment. The struggle is trying to find where we can best fit into the "helping our community" picture. Every county is different, and therefore, they have different needs. But the one area that there is a huge opening is through CERT. CERT provides a great starting point for community involvement, preparedness, organization, etc., but it is lacking some very critical parts, such as communications. Another hurdle is that not all counties will use CERT personnel for ANYTHING!!!!!! Whereas, other counties rely heavily on CERT personnel to perform a wide array of tasks. Either way, in the ISL, we push CERT pretty hard on our membership. So over the past 5 years, the ISL has taken CERT and made it our core. Not all of the members have gone through CERT training, but many of our manuals, meetings and FTX's all have some connection to CERT.

Some of you may now be asking... Why even have the ISL if all we are is a CERT group? Because CERT is not organized across the state. Just like the various militia groups in Indiana, CERT is active in pockets, and like I mentioned earlier, some counties want nothing to do with CERT. Some of that attitude may come from ignorance of what CERT is, and some of it may come from that fact that CERT isn't under the authority of any county officials. The whole function of CERT is to fill the void between a disaster and emergency services arriving. Without CERT, everyone is left to fend for themselves until the fire depart arrives. I typically use severe weather as an example of why emergency service couldn't get to the scene in a timely manner. For example, a long track tornado, blocked roads, services overwhelmed at various locations, etc. The idea is to get as many people as possible thinking "preparedness", and NOT government over-through. I'm sure there would be a few departments and agencies that would ***** because CERT personnel were on scene 2-3 hours (or days) before them, and the CERT personnel have already searched for victims, possibly extracted a couple of people, triaged everyone, and began treating the injured. If emergency service personnel get upset by that, then they need to ask themselves why they are even on the department. I thought the whole idea was to "help your community"? The various departments shouldn't get bent out of shape when someone helps them out. Many times, I've heard the excuse; CERT people don't have the same training! That's true, but without CERT, then who does have the training for those few hours when emergency services cannot get to the scene? If emergency services personnel get upset because they feel that I'd be doing their job. If that's that's the case, than please refer to the very first paragraph in this post.

The bottom line is, we're Americans, we're Hoosiers, we're human and we want to help with our community. Joining the military and going to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. to kill those people may work for Washington, but it doesn't work me. We have enough problems right here that need fixing, and that's what I'm working on. I'm NOT using tax dollars to do this, it's coming out of my own pocket. It's an effort from the heart and not because I have a flowing red cape with a big "S" on my chest. I'm doing this because I see the government getting WAY too big and there are people that want to help and they don't know where they can.

Fire extinguisher at the ready...

This is the 4th time, I've tried to answer this but F***ing ingo keeps bumping me offline so I'm making this short.
The case I cited WAS relevant. I presented it as "if I recall (accurately)". It wasn't about me "being smart". It's already been pointed out that the militia historically was a "public" institution with gov't affiliation. That doesn't prohibit individuals from training together (kudos!) but the difference is in having a formal organizational structure.
Given the priorities that Aaron presented defense of 1)family2)community3)state, I said that a MSG sounded more appropriate. Your talk of CERT seems to reflect that. The issues that I raised with ISL as a defensive force for the state--we were told that even in combat,1) ISL would not trepass 2)members were free to come or go--haven't been addressed. Finally, like I told Aaron, my position isn't a personal attack. I'm sure you're all good neighbors, I'm just skeptical of ad hoc militias.

 

[ISL State CO]

This is the 4th time, I've tried to answer this but F***ing ingo keeps bumping me offline so I'm making this short.
The case I cited WAS relevant. I presented it as "if I recall (accurately)". It wasn't about me "being smart". It's already been pointed out that the militia historically was a "public" institution with gov't affiliation. That doesn't prohibit individuals from training together (kudos!) but the difference is in having a formal organizational structure.
Given the priorities that Aaron presented defense of 1)family2)community3)state, I said that a MSG sounded more appropriate. Your talk of CERT seems to reflect that. The issues that I raised with ISL as a defensive force for the state--we were told that even in combat,1) ISL would not trepass 2)members were free to come or go--haven't been addressed. Finally, like I told Aaron, my position isn't a personal attack. I'm sure you're all good neighbors, I'm just skeptical of ad hoc militias.

Justice Joseph Story on the Second Amendment

I don't know what the context the "...would not trespass..." comment was made, but on the surface it would seem as if it was with regard to respect of individual property Rights. But regardless if it's a combat situation or not, I don't like the idea of being shot at by a property owner. No matter what response I have for this "not trespass" comment, it would be easy to read into and take out of context, so instead of opening up that can of worms, I'm going to leave it alone.

As for "members are free to come and go", I don't see what there is to address. I can't force people to stay a member of the ISL, so if they leave, oh well. People join groups like this because of their own free will, and not because someone forces them to. Yes, there is a vetting process and a probationary period, which is done to weed out morons, malcontents and lairs, but beyond that, I'm not sure what the controversy is about regarding the initial statement.

As for "ad hoc", aren't all militias "ad hoc" to one degree or another? The difference is that the ISL, or any militia for that matter, is less "ad hoc" than say a neighborhood coming together at the moment when a crisis occurs. The idea of starting your preparations at the time of a crisis, rather than prior, is irresponsible, risky and dangerous. Individuals can prep all they want, but unless a fair percentage of your neighbors are doing similar prepping, when something does happen, if you're the only one doing anything, then you're going to be spending a great deal of time defending "your stuff", rather than dealing with the crisis. It comes down to the "Have's" and "Have Not's", and I think it's safe to say that we would all rather have more "Have's" than "Have Not's".

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Aaaaannnnnnd...He gone!

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break-room/360571-fun-while-lasted-2.html

"Not that my opinion matters much to most of you.... I've been a member of this site for several years, but as you can tell by the few posts I've made, I haven't been around much. Part of the reasons I haven't been on here are for many of the same reasons that IndyDave1776 pointed out, but also because I have a forum of my own that I maintain, not to mention a long list of other tasks. The reason for my absence, I determined, was because I had better things to do than to come up here and join in with other free speaking American's. In other words, I thought this would be a collection of "Like Minded" people, and for the most part, it is. But having received a PM from IndyDave1776 indicating his departure from this site, it has caused me to pause and reexamine my own involvement here. And after reading some of the other comments in this thread, I can't help but start to think that there are factors that I do not have a detailed picture of that are the reasons that INGO exists. I'm not going to speculate as to what those factors are, because I can't prove one way or the other. But the one aspect of this site that needs no explanation is that the members on INGO are starting to get a bit perturbed at the managers of said site for various actions taken. Personally, I don't NEED to be apart of this site - I chose to be here, and like IndyDave1776, I can take it or leave it. So in this case, since I have better things to do and another place that I call Home, I will be taking an extended leave of absence from this site, and I will be replacing the INGO sticker in the back window of my truck with an ISL sticker.

I wish you all well. Have a happy and prosperous new year. I hope to connect with some of you in the not too distant future."

In Liberty...

Don

PS - The fact that you have to re-log-in every few minutes to even make a post on this site is total pain in the <censored>!!!!!!!