If the SHTF will you use optics?

[windellmc]

If an EMP takes out your Aimpoint then you won't be around to worry about it.

Video games and fiction are not reality.

Sorry I was reading about the Starfish Prime test that blew streetlights in Hawaii 900 miles from the blast. Is the Aimpoint hardened against EMP?

 

[churchmouse]

Sorry I was reading about the Starfish Prime test that blew streetlights in Hawaii 900 miles from the blast. Is the Aimpoint hardened against EMP?

For the money I sure hope so. Not sure. Just read the pamphlet. No mention of hardened circuits. Good question. Still, If it is in your hands during the event,
game over.
Power lines carry the EMP effect for miles in all directions effecting the equipment attached but not much away from the line. That would explain the street lights at such a great distance. This info from an electrical engineer.

 

[thebishopp]

Wait wait wait wait...

I know I was in 5th grade at the time, but I've never heard any stories of firefights during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina ?

They were having issues with local gangs, drug dealers, looters, etc. In fact when we went in as armed escorts the State Troopers warned us of them. They even told us not to stop for any NOPD cruisers that tried to stop our convoys or pulls us over. They had some issues with a group called the "corn roll gang" that had "somehow" gotten a hold of complete NOPD uniforms and gear as well as their cruisers and where car jacking people. We were given a hotline number and told to call if anyone tried to stop us.

While the team I was with didn't have any violent encounters it was a little surreal. NG unit on the corner at a road block around a burn barrel to keep warm, occasional gun fire and sirens off in the distance... good times

 

[thefinnnwi]

I'd definitely use optics on my ar-15.

In a SHTF scenario, I'd most likely be using our shotgun rather than the AR-15 though. No need to take long shots if your trying to keep a low profile and survive. I'm not looking for any extra attention :-P Just trying to survive and protect myself and my family.

 

[churchmouse]

They were having issues with local gangs, drug dealers, looters, etc. In fact when we went in as armed escorts the State Troopers warned us of them. They even told us not to stop for any NOPD cruisers that tried to stop our convoys or pulls us over. They had some issues with a group called the "corn roll gang" that had "somehow" gotten a hold of complete NOPD uniforms and gear as well as their cruisers and where car jacking people. We were given a hotline number and told to call if anyone tried to stop us.

While the team I was with didn't have any violent encounters it was a little surreal. NG unit on the corner at a road block around a burn barrel to keep warm, occasional gun fire and sirens off in the distance... good times

That whole thing with Katrina is a great example of a SHTF scenario. With the whole world watching and troops massing to move in and take control the bad guys did what they do best....be total bad guys. Open looting, not just to survive but to just have. Firefights, troops entering civilians homes and disarming them (wrong people jack-tards) Imagine what would happen on a national scale if SHTF.

 

[actaeon277]

You guys know that Not all nuc bursts cause EMPs. In fact, the enemy pretty much has to try to cause one.
Most nucs are detonated as an airburst, causing maximum distance casualty to equipment and personnal.
Some nucs are ground detonated, usually only for hardened buried targets. Such as bunkers, nuc silos, etc.
EMPs are caused by upper atmosphere (near space) detonations. They are too high to cause any physical damage to anything except electronics with semi-conductors. The range is determined by nuc size, nuc type, height of detonation, and a few other smaller factors.
MOST Hollywood depictions are wrong, as I'm sure you've noticed with Hollywood and guns.

 

[repeter1977]

I would use my EO Tech as long as I had batteries. Might as well use them, and the batteries. Also, my rifles do have backups as well. Course, as pointed out as well, Trijicon ACOGs dont need batteries and I have heard they run great. Course, since I dont have one, cant use that can i? As for EMPs, as pointed out, if one were to happen, i think you would have a lot of other things to worry about besides what went out.

 

[churchmouse]

You guys know that Not all nuc bursts cause EMPs. In fact, the enemy pretty much has to try to cause one.
Most nucs are detonated as an airburst, causing maximum distance casualty to equipment and personnal.
Some nucs are ground detonated, usually only for hardened buried targets. Such as bunkers, nuc silos, etc.
EMPs are caused by upper atmosphere (near space) detonations. They are too high to cause any physical damage to anything except electronics with semi-conductors. The range is determined by nuc size, nuc type, height of detonation, and a few other smaller factors.
MOST Hollywood depictions are wrong, as I'm sure you've noticed with Hollywood and guns.

That is an interesting point not told me when I brought this up to my engineer buddy. Of course he was stating facts based on electricity and not the Nuclear side. There is a thread on EMP in the sticky. You should post this on that.

 

[Electronrider]

Always always always have at leat BUIS on your AR. Technology is all well and good, but why pay 1k for a top of the line aimpoint, and not and extra 150 bucks for irons, just in case?

 

[CountryBoy19]

Power lines carry the EMP effect for miles in all directions effecting the equipment attached but not much away from the line. That would explain the street lights at such a great distance. This info from an electrical engineer.

+1

To go into a little more depth about this, lets understand a little bit about how an EMP works. To dumb it down, we'll compare it to a radio tower, and your radio antenna. The source of the EMP is the transmitter on the tower, and the signal travels through the air in the form of radio waves. When those waves hit the antenna on your radio they turn into very small electrical pulses that tell your radio what the signal is. EMP is sort of similar to radio transmissions traveling through the air. They are electro-magnetic impulses (radio waves to make it simple) and when they run into anything metallic, the become very small electrical impulses. So for EMP to affect things in a great enough manner to make them "blow" or stop working, you need an antenna to pick the EMP up. Any conductors (wire, metal objects, etc) will pick it up and transmit it. The large metal panels on the body of your car will pick it up and those pulses may be channeled through sensitive electronics in a great enough magnitude to fry them. However, it is unlikely that a distant EMP will have the power to do that. If your car gets fried by a distant EMP you probably had a Chevy Volt and it was plugged into the wall when the EMP went off... (somewhat joking here)... why did it fry your Volt? Because you were connected to the electricity grid, what does that grid have? Thousand upon thousands of miles of wires connected together, high up in the air where they are readily available to pick up an EMP pulse and turn it into electrical current. Those thousands of miles of "antenna" pick up a HUGE "signal" from the EMP and that causes a very large power surge that frys most things connected to the grid.

The 8" of electrical wire inside the circuit board of your Aimpoint isn't going to pick up a large enough pulse to fry the circuit. Just like your car likely won't even pick up enough pulse to fry the electronic controls... but your tv may just be toast.

So there you have it, a brief explanation of how EMP's work by a person that knows just enough about them to explain it in layman's terms.

I may not be completely correct on all of the information here, but that is generally how it works and why a lot of electronics will be just fine.

 

[churchmouse]

+1

To go into a little more depth about this, lets understand a little bit about how an EMP works. To dumb it down, we'll compare it to a radio tower, and your radio antenna. The source of the EMP is the transmitter on the tower, and the signal travels through the air in the form of radio waves. When those waves hit the antenna on your radio they turn into very small electrical pulses that tell your radio what the signal is. EMP is sort of similar to radio transmissions traveling through the air. They are electro-magnetic impulses (radio waves to make it simple) and when they run into anything metallic, the become very small electrical impulses. So for EMP to affect things in a great enough manner to make them "blow" or stop working, you need an antenna to pick the EMP up. Any conductors (wire, metal objects, etc) will pick it up and transmit it. The large metal panels on the body of your car will pick it up and those pulses may be channeled through sensitive electronics in a great enough magnitude to fry them. However, it is unlikely that a distant EMP will have the power to do that. If your car gets fried by a distant EMP you probably had a Chevy Volt and it was plugged into the wall when the EMP went off... (somewhat joking here)... why did it fry your Volt? Because you were connected to the electricity grid, what does that grid have? Thousand upon thousands of miles of wires connected together, high up in the air where they are readily available to pick up an EMP pulse and turn it into electrical current. Those thousands of miles of "antenna" pick up a HUGE "signal" from the EMP and that causes a very large power surge that frys most things connected to the grid.

The 8" of electrical wire inside the circuit board of your Aimpoint isn't going to pick up a large enough pulse to fry the circuit. Just like your car likely won't even pick up enough pulse to fry the electronic controls... but your tv may just be toast.

So there you have it, a brief explanation of how EMP's work by a person that knows just enough about them to explain it in layman's terms.

I may not be completely correct on all of the information here, but that is generally how it works and why a lot of electronics will be just fine.

Precisely. The EMP effect is like what my AMP clamp sees when measuring currant. The meter is measuring the field generated around the wire.

 

[actaeon277]

Precisely. The EMP effect is like what my AMP clamp sees when measuring currant. The meter is measuring the field generated around the wire.

Not exactly. I'll explain when I get to a computer. Too much to type on phone at doc office.

 

[armedindy]

i dont own any reddots or any optic that uses batteries....i think holos and reddots are sweet as hell, but i cant justify spending that much cash on something that wont be riding with me into the sunset when the world ends...lol i need some purple in there....but seriously, i dont like my guns to have batteries on them...i have a candle shoe attachment on my ar...i need pruple here too...oh god this response has gotten out of control...over

 

[cavemike]

/\ /\ THIS /\ /\

 

[actaeon277]

Okay, now I'm at a computer. This is of course extremely simplified.
EMP is usually caused by an upper atmo burst, somewhere around 20 or 30 miles up. Too high, and the air is too thin to transmit the "wave". The stripping of the atoms.
Too low, and everything is melted, EMP is kinda unimportant.

The blast from the EMP causes atoms and electrons to basically "separate". Positive particles go one way, negative particles go the other. (Compton effect)
This happens about the speed of light.
Remember, timing of component reactions in electronics are in the tenths or hundredths of a second.
Timing on an atomic level is a millionth of a millionth.
So there is no way for electronics to sense it, and protect themselves.

EMPs mostly are limited to semiconductors. Chips and transistors. At ranges approaching underneath ground zero, more stalwart electronics can be affected.

Electrical lines will pick up the secondary effect, called Magnetohydrodynamics (?spelling). This will transmit the damage further.

But even if you are not connected to the grid, the first mentioned effect (Compton). Chips just laying there will be zapped, just as if static electricity jumped from your hand into the chip. The difference is, you can feel static electricity.

Chips/ICs in Faraday cages and ESD (electrostatic device device) bags will be protected. But, obviously, the closer to under ground zero (ground zero is up in the air, remember) the more likely that Compton Effect will be able to overpower the protection.

Also, not all EMPs are caused by nucs. I think there are conventional weapons that can cause limited area damage. But I don't think there are very many of those type of weapons. Mostly research. After all, most damage they will do is to civilian stuff. Most (not all) important military stuff is EMP hardened.

Okay. I'm sure I've confused everyone.
And I'm equally sure I've left stuff out.

I've been outta the nuc equation for a "few" years. So I'm sure things have changed a little. But physics is physics.

As for Hollywood:
Underground bombs won't EMP.
Ground bombs vaporize you.
Turning the device off has no protection value. On or off, the same effect.

 

[churchmouse]

Thanks. As I said, you need to post this on the EMP thread in the sticky section. It is one of the best explanations given that I have read. Not read that whole thread and this may be in there but a re-post gets the newbies involved.

 

[Infantry88]

Irons are always best...just keep it old school

 

[whiskeytangofoxtrot]

I'm all irons, except for my ACOG, I actually have to put tape over the light gathering area because the reticle is too bright.

 

[actaeon277]

Buy some spare optics. Put them in an ESD. Make a small Faraday cage for them.
Someday your eyes will be a little older.

 

[flatlander]

If you don't use technology to your advantage then somebody else will and the results will be a win for them. .Mil and everybody else use RDS because it makes them more effective. Why limit yourself? Go ahead and keep using "old school" tactics and equipment. Hope it doesn't bite you. If I don't evolve, I die. I'm not in a rush to do that.

Bob