Thank you. Just like my shooting. Sooner or later I might hit something. LOL.
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How do you define Accuracy?
- Thread starter cedartop
- Start date
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Can't recall the company- Ed Brown? Nighthawk? Could have been Kimber... They guaranteed 2" groups @ 50 yds. They sold hardball or wadcutter guns for bullseye shooters...more I think about it I think it was Ed Brown ( I didn't have $4500 to spend)
Yes. All of our Bullseye 1911 do sub1 1/2” groups at 50 yards. Some are homemade Colts banged together and others are custom products. Our 25 yard jframe stages are fun as well. It’s fun to ring the IPSC steel at 100 yards with our JFrames in 38special. While the guns will do it, many have traded accuracy in for the comfort of shooting close and fast. I think they call it “Practical” when in fact it means easy without the hard work of precision shooting
You used to hear some of that with Colt and Wilson 1911's.
Loads of gunsmiths used the Colt kits that they sold.
Smith& Wesson boasted 1 1/2 to 2 1/2" groups at 50yds with the 52-2 38 Special.
Both have there pluses, 1911 45 at 50 yds and the 38 Smith 52-2 at 25 yds.
Precision is being able to consistently place shots in close proximity to one another. Accuracy is the ability to put those shots where you want them.
There is definitely a difference between practical and mechanical accuracy. It depends on your personal goals how much that difference matters.
I completely agree with many here that shooting a rifle or handgun off a bench is no indication of what you can do with it in the real world. However, it is sometimes necessary to a.) Establish that the gun is mechanically precise enough to match your intended goals and b.) Establish a zero for your sighting system(s) to ensure you are working with a proper point of aim.
A couple of examples: I own some milsurp rifles that are pretty old and pretty shot out. I handload for them, and some of them will tolerate a certain load and produce a 3 or 4 moa group, while opening up significantly or even completely failing to stabilize others. Not shooting those rifles off of a bench to establish their capabilities and needs would be a waste of ammo until you've determined what load you need to feed them and set the sights for proper point of impact at a known distance. Ideally with a rifle, my standard would be to be able to produce a group of 1MOA or less off of a bench, but there are plenty of guns out there that will never be able to do that simply because they lack the mechanical precision to be able to accomplish it.
For a handgun, I zero a red dot at 15 yards, or 50 feet for a bullseye gun. I do this off of a bag, but confirm by shooting standing unsupported. I want to see about a 1" group at 15 yards off the bag (and it makes me feel good if I can match that offhand...doesn't always happen, though). Standing unsupported, I'd like to be able to put all rounds in the black of a B8 at 25 yards slow-fire with a full-size defensive-type handgun, 15-20 yards with a snubby or micro-compact. Target guns should be better. I'm not saying I can do that that every time, but that's the goal. Speed work closer in can then commence as I've established a baseline for my capabilities with the gun, and am working with a known zero. I like using the black of a B8 as a standard as it's representative of the size of the critical target areas (heart, brain) on people or most large game animals like deer or hogs.
Both the mechanical accuracy of the system and your technique as a shooter are important. Being able to produce MOA groups off a benchrest is worthless (unless your goal is to shoot benchrest competition) if you can't hit the broad side of a barn offhand, just like a sub-one-second draw and 0.1 splits are worthless if you can't land the rounds into your intended target area at that speed.
There is definitely a difference between practical and mechanical accuracy. It depends on your personal goals how much that difference matters.
I completely agree with many here that shooting a rifle or handgun off a bench is no indication of what you can do with it in the real world. However, it is sometimes necessary to a.) Establish that the gun is mechanically precise enough to match your intended goals and b.) Establish a zero for your sighting system(s) to ensure you are working with a proper point of aim.
A couple of examples: I own some milsurp rifles that are pretty old and pretty shot out. I handload for them, and some of them will tolerate a certain load and produce a 3 or 4 moa group, while opening up significantly or even completely failing to stabilize others. Not shooting those rifles off of a bench to establish their capabilities and needs would be a waste of ammo until you've determined what load you need to feed them and set the sights for proper point of impact at a known distance. Ideally with a rifle, my standard would be to be able to produce a group of 1MOA or less off of a bench, but there are plenty of guns out there that will never be able to do that simply because they lack the mechanical precision to be able to accomplish it.
For a handgun, I zero a red dot at 15 yards, or 50 feet for a bullseye gun. I do this off of a bag, but confirm by shooting standing unsupported. I want to see about a 1" group at 15 yards off the bag (and it makes me feel good if I can match that offhand...doesn't always happen, though). Standing unsupported, I'd like to be able to put all rounds in the black of a B8 at 25 yards slow-fire with a full-size defensive-type handgun, 15-20 yards with a snubby or micro-compact. Target guns should be better. I'm not saying I can do that that every time, but that's the goal. Speed work closer in can then commence as I've established a baseline for my capabilities with the gun, and am working with a known zero. I like using the black of a B8 as a standard as it's representative of the size of the critical target areas (heart, brain) on people or most large game animals like deer or hogs.
Both the mechanical accuracy of the system and your technique as a shooter are important. Being able to produce MOA groups off a benchrest is worthless (unless your goal is to shoot benchrest competition) if you can't hit the broad side of a barn offhand, just like a sub-one-second draw and 0.1 splits are worthless if you can't land the rounds into your intended target area at that speed.
Some thoughts and feedback on some comments I read in the first half of the thread:
yes, most YT vids are there for the clicks, not for quality content. Accuracy "of the gun" is almost never checked and accuracy of the system (gun + shooter) usually isn't even challenged.
They're separate things that don't always correlate. For example, a mechanically accurate gun with bad ergonomics and a nasty trigger pull. Simplified example: double action revolvers for most people (for the record, I find a good DA revolver quite enjoyable) who don't ever train with heavy or long triggers. The stock triggers on many striker guns. Look at how much anecdotal evidence there is of a trigger job tightening up groups! The trigger didn't change the mechanical accuracy of the gun but it did change the operation of the system.
The other reason not to bother with ransom rests and the like is they'll find that pistols are just as ammo-sensitive as rifles as far as group size. You don't see bullseye shooters grabbing a box of Blazer at the local sporting goods store on their way to a match. I'd also bet they vary more from gun to gun than rifles do. Lastly, quantifiable measures look bad to the manufacturer that might be giving them guns to review. "More accurate than I am" is fine. "shot X size group which is .001 worse than this other manufacturer" affects sales. Also, it's gonna be more expensive to test a couple varieties of ammo rather than one cheaper bulk box. (and there again, results will drive ammo sales which will affect future review donations/loans). I do shoot bullseye, including shooting my carry gun, and (for those of us that can hit a target at 50 yards) ammo absolutely makes a big difference in group size.
For those that say handgun accuracy only needs to be tested at 10-15 yards, I get it but disagree. Take that cone of uncertainty on a flat range and add adrenaline, sweat, blood, bad lighting, bad grip, and panic and that cone of uncertainty opens up even wider. Look at the NYC police accuracy stats... 12lb triggers on their glocks, usual police barely-adequate accuracy = lotsa misses. If you only ever practice handguns for acceptable accuracy at 5-10 yards, your accuracy will only ever be just acceptable at 5-10 yards. Start pushing to have "acceptable" accuracy at 15-20-25+ then you'll be picking wings off flies at 5-10 and when things go south, your accuracy will still be "acceptable" at 5-10.
yes, most YT vids are there for the clicks, not for quality content. Accuracy "of the gun" is almost never checked and accuracy of the system (gun + shooter) usually isn't even challenged.
They're separate things that don't always correlate. For example, a mechanically accurate gun with bad ergonomics and a nasty trigger pull. Simplified example: double action revolvers for most people (for the record, I find a good DA revolver quite enjoyable) who don't ever train with heavy or long triggers. The stock triggers on many striker guns. Look at how much anecdotal evidence there is of a trigger job tightening up groups! The trigger didn't change the mechanical accuracy of the gun but it did change the operation of the system.
The other reason not to bother with ransom rests and the like is they'll find that pistols are just as ammo-sensitive as rifles as far as group size. You don't see bullseye shooters grabbing a box of Blazer at the local sporting goods store on their way to a match. I'd also bet they vary more from gun to gun than rifles do. Lastly, quantifiable measures look bad to the manufacturer that might be giving them guns to review. "More accurate than I am" is fine. "shot X size group which is .001 worse than this other manufacturer" affects sales. Also, it's gonna be more expensive to test a couple varieties of ammo rather than one cheaper bulk box. (and there again, results will drive ammo sales which will affect future review donations/loans). I do shoot bullseye, including shooting my carry gun, and (for those of us that can hit a target at 50 yards) ammo absolutely makes a big difference in group size.
For those that say handgun accuracy only needs to be tested at 10-15 yards, I get it but disagree. Take that cone of uncertainty on a flat range and add adrenaline, sweat, blood, bad lighting, bad grip, and panic and that cone of uncertainty opens up even wider. Look at the NYC police accuracy stats... 12lb triggers on their glocks, usual police barely-adequate accuracy = lotsa misses. If you only ever practice handguns for acceptable accuracy at 5-10 yards, your accuracy will only ever be just acceptable at 5-10 yards. Start pushing to have "acceptable" accuracy at 15-20-25+ then you'll be picking wings off flies at 5-10 and when things go south, your accuracy will still be "acceptable" at 5-10.
Same way I do for a long gun... If I can hit my intended target with it.
Now that's not saying much when we're talking about testing a firearm for an evaluation of the gun itself, I know. For that, any firearm tested should be tested in a rest so you remove human error from the equation. Of course I always "like" to know what a firearm is "capable" of.... but what really matters is... "what I am capable of doing with it".
One gun may well be more "mechanically" accurate, but if I don't like the grip, or the controls... I won't be able to shoot it well.
Now that's not saying much when we're talking about testing a firearm for an evaluation of the gun itself, I know. For that, any firearm tested should be tested in a rest so you remove human error from the equation. Of course I always "like" to know what a firearm is "capable" of.... but what really matters is... "what I am capable of doing with it".
One gun may well be more "mechanically" accurate, but if I don't like the grip, or the controls... I won't be able to shoot it well.
Frontiersman
Sharpshooter
That's a lot of awful complicated answers.
Accuracy is ... Hitting what you intend to.
Accuracy is ... Hitting what you intend to.
We typically talk about accuracy and precision. Precision is the measurement of the group we need to shoot and accuracy is our ability to meet that goal. Maybe, we need to add a third measure to record the ultimate capability of the platform. For instance, if I have a CZ PCR that I set a goal of being able to shoot a 6 inch group offhand at 10 yards, and I do a 3 inch group consistently, I'm accurate for my goal.
If the PCR, on a bench rest is capable of doing a 1.5" group all day long at 10 yards, that's the guns capability. That capability has nothing to do with the accuracy in meeting the needed precision as long as the capability meets the requirements of the precision.
In short, I define accuracy as my ability to meet whatever goals I have in front of me. Precision is what defines that goal and capability is the ultimate mechanical ability to place a consistent shot.
If the PCR, on a bench rest is capable of doing a 1.5" group all day long at 10 yards, that's the guns capability. That capability has nothing to do with the accuracy in meeting the needed precision as long as the capability meets the requirements of the precision.
In short, I define accuracy as my ability to meet whatever goals I have in front of me. Precision is what defines that goal and capability is the ultimate mechanical ability to place a consistent shot.
Remington 90T
Marksman
At 70 I measure my hunting accuracy in two ways -drop dead shot if he is heading down hill or a 100 yd.-blood trail going up hill. both are a win in my book
A lot of practical "accuracy" comes from what can be achieved consistantly, at this moment.
Ten years ago, I was in the thick of competitive shooting. Just to be able to show up in the middle of the score sheet required a consistant ability to perform. Could I show up in the middle of those score sheets today? Nuh-uh
Not without a practice regiment to bring back every draw resulting in a reasonable scoring hit.
Similarly with the long guns, the likihood of making a cold bore long range precision hit goes down well beyond what stretch you were once capable of.
Gun handling and marksmanship are perishable skills. That has to be recognized. While you may not completely fall apart in your skillset, trying to go as fast or far as where you left off years ago, will be an eye opener?
A lot of us are walking around thinking our ability to shoot is as it was where we left off at. Unless it was last month, better yet last week, your likihood of making the desired shot has diminished.
Ten years ago, I was in the thick of competitive shooting. Just to be able to show up in the middle of the score sheet required a consistant ability to perform. Could I show up in the middle of those score sheets today? Nuh-uh
Not without a practice regiment to bring back every draw resulting in a reasonable scoring hit.Similarly with the long guns, the likihood of making a cold bore long range precision hit goes down well beyond what stretch you were once capable of.
Gun handling and marksmanship are perishable skills. That has to be recognized. While you may not completely fall apart in your skillset, trying to go as fast or far as where you left off years ago, will be an eye opener?
A lot of us are walking around thinking our ability to shoot is as it was where we left off at. Unless it was last month, better yet last week, your likihood of making the desired shot has diminished.
Some people retain skills better than others.
And after a few decades it proly is like riding a bike.
IMHO rifles are boringly easy to shoot decent.
Handguns take practice.
That "jolt" thing.
The normal human reaction to that, is same in archery.
Youre not gonna get hurt, so why flinch or have target panic?
Because its natural.
Practice can help numb that reaction.
It can also make it worse.
Will admit I shoot almost as good as I used to.
But when younger it was EASY.
Now I have to focus harder, to be almost as good.
And after a few decades it proly is like riding a bike.
IMHO rifles are boringly easy to shoot decent.
Handguns take practice.
That "jolt" thing.
The normal human reaction to that, is same in archery.
Youre not gonna get hurt, so why flinch or have target panic?
Because its natural.
Practice can help numb that reaction.
It can also make it worse.
Will admit I shoot almost as good as I used to.
But when younger it was EASY.
Now I have to focus harder, to be almost as good.
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Took my .243 out, and hadn't shot it for a yr.
First couple shots I was "this has a nice trigger"
A few more and I was thinking "this thing is kinda heavy" LOL
Practiced or not, groups were the same off bipod and rear bag.
Cheap factory WW 80gr was .75 at 100, repeatedly.
Doesn't matter. Haven't called in a yote since my buddy bought some high dollar caller LMAO
First couple shots I was "this has a nice trigger"
A few more and I was thinking "this thing is kinda heavy" LOL
Practiced or not, groups were the same off bipod and rear bag.
Cheap factory WW 80gr was .75 at 100, repeatedly.
Doesn't matter. Haven't called in a yote since my buddy bought some high dollar caller LMAO
Accuracy and a firearm being sighted in are two completely different issues. You can have a 10 shot group that is one big hole at 100 yards but it is 2" low and 4" right. If your firearm can do that, it is accurate. If you move the sights and the impact doesn't change, you have an issue with your sights. Is your rifle still accurate? Yes, you need to fix your sighting mechanism.
Ringing steel is NEVER an indicator of accuracy. Put whatever on paper, use a rest, shoot with one goal in mind: The smallest group possible with you as the shooter. If you can't get a group with you shooting it, give it to someone else. I wish I had a penny for every cowboy that came to the range with a gun that didn't shoot right for them that then put all of the bullets in one hole for me. Usually didn't get asked to try that again. lol
One time, I came out to the line to shoot on a dueling tree after watching some cowboys shoot at it with about a one in six hit average over two mags. I used my S&W M629 Classic loaded with 240gr LSWC @ 1400fps and shot faster than them and hit each plate on it. They were kinda amazed....I was too but, you had to be there that day at that time to see it! lol
Ringing steel is NEVER an indicator of accuracy. Put whatever on paper, use a rest, shoot with one goal in mind: The smallest group possible with you as the shooter. If you can't get a group with you shooting it, give it to someone else. I wish I had a penny for every cowboy that came to the range with a gun that didn't shoot right for them that then put all of the bullets in one hole for me. Usually didn't get asked to try that again. lol
One time, I came out to the line to shoot on a dueling tree after watching some cowboys shoot at it with about a one in six hit average over two mags. I used my S&W M629 Classic loaded with 240gr LSWC @ 1400fps and shot faster than them and hit each plate on it. They were kinda amazed....I was too but, you had to be there that day at that time to see it! lol
Remington 90T
Marksman
I ain't as good as I once was,
But I'm as good once as I ever was." Tony Keith sums up my shooting the best.
But I'm as good once as I ever was." Tony Keith sums up my shooting the best.
FIFY
sheepdog697
Expert
Yea if my handguns don’t group moa at 100yd with a 15 round group it’s time to go…Accuracy? Repeatable consistent 1 MOA at 100 yards or better. At a minimum.
You shoot yotes using a bipod and rear bag?
Better rack us up some numbers to show you can still "ride a bike."
The score sheet never lies. Pics will work for score.
You shoot yotes using a bipod and rear bag?
Better rack us up some numbers to show you can still "ride a bike."
The score sheet never lies. Pics will work for score.
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