How do you define Accuracy?

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  • Trapper Jim

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    And how does that translate to practical shooting for you? For example, can you dot to an IDPA match and average 1 point down per stage while shooting at a pace of roughly 1 second per shot, that is around 18 seconds for an 18 round stage, 10 seconds for a 10 shot stage, etc.?
    Accuracy is the machine and Practical Accuracy is determined by the individual. Hand eye coordination is different for all of us. Ocular brain mapping along with motor skills and controlled by neurological differences not to mention shooting fundamentals and good or bad equipment rank the accomplished shooter in action pistol.

    Hit factors in USPSA are a good example of this. IDPA on the other hand is more accuracy dependent. However, since the time of flight of 18 rounds of bullets totals less than .063 seconds computed on an average of 10 yards per target at 850fps then over 17 seconds of time is wasted by the shooter during the COF. Some slower and some faster for an 18 round stage.

    Minute of man is often good enough for todays self defense shooters. I prefer accuracy and responsibility first and then speed. Just me.

    If there is lots a movement and heavy thinking in a stage then it’s harder for me to average less than a shot per second. Again just me.

    However on something like a Bill Drill which requires no thinking (that is if I can download to 6 so I don’t have to count rounds) 2 second runs have been common for me and I have been getting slower with age pushing 3 seconds. Dots or Irons. Again, just me.

    I, like many other Precision shooters, stay in practice by running long range drills. 50 yards and such. It maintains follow through in trigger management and keeps us sharp for when we need it. It is also fun. Banging away at close targets requires less trigger management and can result in never learning complete handgun control.

    Due to our perceptions and convenience, skill set means different things to different gun owners. I feel one should push the envelope to get to the very best he can, whatever that is.
     

    Leo

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    And how does that translate to practical shooting for you? For example, can you dot to an IDPA match and average 1 point down per stage while shooting at a pace of roughly 1 second per shot, that is around 18 seconds for an 18 round stage, 10 seconds for a 10 shot stage, etc.?
    Speed is certainly another skill to learn.

    In my experience it happened accuracy first, and I did some NRA action pistol, IPSC and IDPA shooting. As well as ICORE. I drew a government model or a .45 revolver out of carry leather. I did notice that many shooters could pour ammo out of the pistol and hope for A zone hits. Since I was shooting 8 or 6 at a time, I had to make an A zone hit every time, or I would lose the reload time. In my shooting style, the high cap 9mm really only helped me when there was no mandatory reload on a stage.

    Many times high round count shooters only finished in the middle of the pack. I know you have seen that. The top guys would be fast and accurate, seldom giving up points of stray shots.
     
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    cedartop

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    Accuracy is the machine and Practical Accuracy is determined by the individual. Hand eye coordination is different for all of us. Ocular brain mapping along with motor skills and controlled by neurological differences not to mention shooting fundamentals and good or bad equipment rank the accomplished shooter in action pistol.

    Hit factors in USPSA are a good example of this. IDPA on the other hand is more accuracy dependent. However, since the time of flight of 18 rounds of bullets totals less than .063 seconds computed on an average of 10 yards per target at 850fps then over 17 seconds of time is wasted by the shooter during the COF. Some slower and some faster for an 18 round stage.

    Minute of man is often good enough for todays self defense shooters. I prefer accuracy and responsibility first and then speed. Just me.

    If there is lots a movement and heavy thinking in a stage then it’s harder for me to average less than a shot per second. Again just me.

    However on something like a Bill Drill which requires no thinking (that is if I can download to 6 so I don’t have to count rounds) 2 second runs have been common for me and I have been getting slower with age pushing 3 seconds. Dots or Irons. Again, just me.

    I, like many other Precision shooters, stay in practice by running long range drills. 50 yards and such. It maintains follow through in trigger management and keeps us sharp for when we need it. It is also fun. Banging away at close targets requires less trigger management and can result in never learning complete handgun control.

    Due to our perceptions and convenience, skill set means different things to different gun owners. I feel one should push the envelope to get to the very best he can, whatever that is.
    You are a trip man.
     

    NHT3

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    I found this very eye opening.. Extend this out to 100 yards and you start realize how precise you need to be to get hits at distance. I have no idea about the firearm used but I think it probably representative of what to expect in general.
     

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    cedartop

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    I found this very eye opening.. Extend this out to 100 yards and you start realize how precise you need to be to get hits at distance. I have no idea about the firearm used but I think it probably representative of what to expect in general.
    Good example of how you really do need to be able to shoot pretty much one hole at 7 to say a handgun has good accuracy.

    Yes I get the difference between precision and accuracy but sometimes use the words interchangeably. My bad.
     

    700 LTR 223

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    Yes. Those of us who grew up shooting NRA Bullseye and IHMSA mastered handgun accuracy. Unfortunately, many of todays shooters bypass follow through on trigger management and just go for the easy quick close shot. A compromise that seems good enough for the self defense crowd.
    Pistol marksmanship is definitely a dying discipline. The first range I ever joined in the late 1980s was not far from Camp Lejune Marine Corps base and nearly all of the shooters there were Marines. Its was pretty common to see good 25 yard pistol shooting back then. Shooting with them gave me a good foundation of learning to shoot accurately. Even shot in one of their "combat" matches later.

    When I watch most reviews on YT for handguns they will all say how accurate a gun is right after they blast away at a rather large steel plate at a rather close distance and hit it more often than not. One step up from that are the guys that will send a target out to 7 or 10 yards and fire at a moderate clip of about .5 to 1 second per round and if they keep them on the B-8 replacement canter they think they have really done something. That kind of stuff doesn't really tell me much about the mechanical accuracy of the gun. The best I see usually is Aaron Cowan doing his 5 round zero check at 25 off of a bench before he beats the hell out of the optic, or Honest Outlaw going back to 50, 75, 100 yards with what he is shooting and hitting (or sometimes missing) steel with it. This is something I miss from the magazines where the good gun writers would do as Tamara describes and test a number of different loads from a good setup.
    I can hardly watch most of the YouTube gun reviews especially where they don't even show what their shooting at, just their stoic face and their pistol spitting out brass with hard rock music. At least Outlaw lets you see the shots is making a lot of the times.

    Got an American Rifleman magazine in the other day and they tested a Rossi revolver and the accuracy results were 5 consecutive 5 shot groups at 25 yards from a Caldwell Matrix rest. Some of the smaller defensive pistols they use a 7 yard standard.
     

    Creedmoor

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    Pistol marksmanship is definitely a dying discipline. The first range I ever joined in the late 1980s was not far from Camp Lejune Marine Corps base and nearly all of the shooters there were Marines. Its was pretty common to see good 25 yard pistol shooting back then.
    Upon graduation of both of my sons at MCAS New River, I took each of them to TOBIES two years apart...
    Thing 2 asked me, how did you know about this place dad? I just laughed.
     

    gregkl

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    Pistol marksmanship is definitely a dying discipline.
    A lot of people aren't interested in the long road to excellent marksmanship.

    I think part of this, or maybe most of this, is due to societal changes. People grew up on video games and when they realized they could play "video" games with real guns via action shooting sports they jumped in.

    Action shooting sports has pushed the slower paced stuff to the back. People take life in small sound bites now. They get bored when momentum slows.

    Add that one doesn't really have to be a great shot to be able to compete and they can run a $400 striker fired gun or a $600 AR-15 and you have a segment of the shooting world that is bound to grow.:twocents:
     

    Hookeye

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    Agree on the YT vids. Even on forums I see some questionable shooting.

    Buddy was shooting his Sig indoors and throwing em wild.at a measely 7 yards. My turn w SBH and KABOOM

    He laughed and said i missed the paper too.

    Told him yeah, was aiming at his bullet hole.
    He called BS so I fired again. His .40 cal.hole had 44 mag Mickey Mouse ears.
     

    Bassat

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    I've watched guys at indoor ranges shoot a handgun from a rest at targets set at 25 yards. Folks who do this sort of stuff are, for the most part, good at it. I don't see the point, unless that is how (s)he is going to shoot the gun. To me, that kind of shooting is a waste of ammunition, and a waste of time. I don't give a FFA what size groups my gun with throw from a rest at 25 yards... because... wait for it... I am never going to shoot it like that in any real-life situation. Most of my shooting is geared toward putting rounds in a 3"-4" circle at 7 yards. I care way more about failures that go left or right, than I do about failures that go high or low. I count a round that goes less than 4" high or low (distance from center or the rest of the group) as a good hit; it is the result of a less than perfect sight picture. I count a round that goes more than 4" left or right as a total miss; it is the result of poor trigger control.

    Before I moved into the booming metropolis of Osceola, I had hundreds of acres of open field (corn/beans) to shoot in. One of my favorite range games involved a 1911, 8 round magazines, and a 1-gallon bleach or milk jug. Start by tossing the jug out to about 7-8 yards. Draw and fire at the jug until slide-lock. The ultimate goal is to hit the jug with each shot before it stops moving from the previous shot. Sometimes it just jiggles in place, sometimes it flies 10'. Just keep shooting. I never once hit the jug with all 9 shots. My record, which I shot with a fair bit of regularity, but certainly not frequently, was 8 out of 9 hits. THAT was how I judged MY accuracy. I've never in my life judged a GUN'S accuracy. I am quite sure any gun I may ever pick up can shoot better than I can.
     

    Trapper Jim

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    I've watched guys at indoor ranges shoot a handgun from a rest at targets set at 25 yards. Folks who do this sort of stuff are, for the most part, good at it. I don't see the point, unless that is how (s)he is going to shoot the gun. To me, that kind of shooting is a waste of ammunition, and a waste of time. I don't give a FFA what size groups my gun with throw from a rest at 25 yards... because... wait for it... I am never going to shoot it like that in any real-life situation. Most of my shooting is geared toward putting rounds in a 3"-4" circle at 7 yards. I care way more about failures that go left or right, than I do about failures that go high or low. I count a round that goes less than 4" high or low (distance from center or the rest of the group) as a good hit; it is the result of a less than perfect sight picture. I count a round that goes more than 4" left or right as a total miss; it is the result of poor trigger control.

    Before I moved into the booming metropolis of Osceola, I had hundreds of acres of open field (corn/beans) to shoot in. One of my favorite range games involved a 1911, 8 round magazines, and a 1-gallon bleach or milk jug. Start by tossing the jug out to about 7-8 yards. Draw and fire at the jug until slide-lock. The ultimate goal is to hit the jug with each shot before it stops moving from the previous shot. Sometimes it just jiggles in place, sometimes it flies 10'. Just keep shooting. I never once hit the jug with all 9 shots. My record, which I shot with a fair bit of regularity, but certainly not frequently, was 8 out of 9 hits. THAT was how I judged MY accuracy. I've never in my life judged a GUN'S accuracy. I am quite sure any gun I may ever pick up can shoot better than I can.
    I get this. It’s easier and you are happy with your ROI. However, if you can do it at 50yards, then 7 becomes easier. If 7 is all you do 50 becomes harder.
     

    patience0830

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    I'm not really sure why you would waste time or ammo on trying to determine the mechanical accuracy of most semi autos or revolvers intended for defensive uses. Ultimately, it doesn't really matter if a handgun is capable of 2" or 3" groups at 25 yards from a rest when it is most likely to be used at 10 yards or less in a dynamic situation. With the intended use and likely range, mechanical accuracy simply isn't very important.

    Mechanical accuracy is more important for a target or hunting revolver or semi auto and that is where I usually see more in depth testing with different loads. Often these types or handguns are used from a rest and at longer ranges so it makes more sense to find the best load and determine the capability of the firearm.
    Eli Dicken, Greenwood mall hero. 40+ yards. Texas church guy. Head shot at some distance more than 7 yds.
    Why settle for less accuracy because "most" shootings are attempted at closer ranges?
     

    Hookeye

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    I've watched guys at indoor ranges shoot a handgun from a rest at targets set at 25 yards. Folks who do this sort of stuff are, for the most part, good at it. I don't see the point, unless that is how (s)he is going to shoot the gun. To me, that kind of shooting is a waste of ammunition, and a waste of time. I don't give a FFA what size groups my gun with throw from a rest at 25 yards... because... wait for it... I am never going to shoot it like that in any real-life situation. Most of my shooting is geared toward putting rounds in a 3"-4" circle at 7 yards. I care way more about failures that go left or right, than I do about failures that go high or low. I count a round that goes less than 4" high or low (distance from center or the rest of the group) as a good hit; it is the result of a less than perfect sight picture. I count a round that goes more than 4" left or right as a total miss; it is the result of poor trigger control.

    Before I moved into the booming metropolis of Osceola, I had hundreds of acres of open field (corn/beans) to shoot in. One of my favorite range games involved a 1911, 8 round magazines, and a 1-gallon bleach or milk jug. Start by tossing the jug out to about 7-8 yards. Draw and fire at the jug until slide-lock. The ultimate goal is to hit the jug with each shot before it stops moving from the previous shot. Sometimes it just jiggles in place, sometimes it flies 10'. Just keep shooting. I never once hit the jug with all 9 shots. My record, which I shot with a fair bit of regularity, but certainly not frequently, was 8 out of 9 hits. THAT was how I judged MY accuracy. I've never in my life judged a GUN'S accuracy. I am quite sure any gun I may ever pick up can shoot better than I can.

    A person can shoot well at distance and also be pretty speedy up close.

    Why not learn to do both well?
     

    Bassat

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    I get this. It’s easier and you are happy with your ROI. However, if you can do it at 50yards, then 7 becomes easier. If 7 is all you do 50 becomes harder.
    Your goals. Not mine. But, thanks anyway. You may want to practice your "Holier than thou" attitude. It is a bit thinly veiled here.
     
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