Help a new CCW out: Legalities and carry solutions for me

[MattCFII]

Here I am derailing my own thread

I'm a pretty large guy -- well, maybe fat.

And I "volunteered" to do some aerial photography (photography is a big hobby of mine) for a non profit project. I wound up in a tiny Cessna trainer and pretty much was going "steady" with the pilot by the time we landed. I mean, I literally was sitting on top of him.

The scariest part was leaning out the window to take pictures. No way in hell did that seatbelt fit me and that little door was held closed by a latch that looked like it was a paper clip in its former life. I had to change my underwear by the time we landed.

Another person who knows what it's like to be crammed in there. What airport did you fly out of? Really it would take a lot to fall out or even for the door to pop open unless the latch was broken. Airplanes stuff looks small, cheap, and weak but really the are usually pretty strong, lightweight, and damn expensive.

I flew skydivers for 5 years north of Fort Wayne. The door was open often. I once flew a load up to 10,000 feet and turned into a pretty steep bank turn to look down at their jump, so basically the big gaping door frame was about the only thing between me and the earth 2 miles down. No big deal because I did it all the time, until I got on the ground went to take off my seat belt and realized I forgot to put it on. Really it would have taken a lot for me to fall out but I made damn sure I had it on before I started the engine.

I'm sure you were fine. That's why there's a big fan in front of the plane. It's to keep the pilot cool. As soon as that fan stops spinning, man, you just watch him sweat!

 

[Vigilant]

Try the 26 in an ankle holster. I am of med avg build, and the 26 in a Kramer or Galco under a pair of dockers fastened to my inside left ankle works well. If you practice, the draw can be accomplished fairly easy from standing, and really easy from a seated position. Not the best option, but definitely an option.

 

[Bigum1969]

Here I am derailing my own thread Another person who knows what it's like to be crammed in there. What airport did you fly out of? Really it would take a lot to fall out or even for the door to pop open unless the latch was broken. Airplanes stuff looks small, cheap, and weak but really the are usually pretty strong, lightweight, and damn expensive.

I flew skydivers for 5 years north of Fort Wayne. The door was open often. I once flew a load up to 10,000 feet and turned into a pretty steep bank turn to look down at their jump, so basically the big gaping door frame was about the only thing between me and the earth 2 miles down. No big deal because I did it all the time, until I got on the ground went to take off my seat belt and realized I forgot to put it on. Really it would have taken a lot for me to fall out but I made damn sure I had it on before I started the engine.

I was flying out of Tri State Aero down here in Evansville. The pilot was a super nice kid (maybe 18 or 19?). He said he was going to college to become a commercial pilot.

It really freaked me out because I couldn't fit in the seatbelt, so I had no back up restraint. It was also really hard to turn sideways in the plane in order to get the shots I needed. Space is definitely at a premium!

 

[shawkpilot]

Most flight instructing jobs are all considered part 91. In which case, I do not believe there are any limitations on carrying. Even if you do sight seeing flights, or intro rides, they are not considered to be charters because you would need to take a 135 checkride in order accomplish that. Any time you are flying a cessna, you're probably OK.

As a side note, drop out of flight school, go get yourself a real education, and do flying as a hobby. I've been in the industry for quite some time now, and although there are still a few perks, the downsides WAY outweigh the upsides. Always have a backup career. One failed medical, busted checkride, or accident, and you'll be hard pressed to keep a paycheck.

 

[MattCFII]

I got a pocket holster yesterday when my latest CTD order came in. Just a cheapy Uncle Mikes which is actually suppose to be one of their better products. So far I'm not impressed, it stays on the gun most times when I draw from a cargo pocket. I'm not sure if it needs broken in a little so the gun will come out more smoothly.

Most flight instructing jobs are all considered part 91. In which case, I do not believe there are any limitations on carrying. Even if you do sight seeing flights, or intro rides, they are not considered to be charters because you would need to take a 135 checkride in order accomplish that. Any time you are flying a cessna, you're probably OK.

As a side note, drop out of flight school, go get yourself a real education, and do flying as a hobby. I've been in the industry for quite some time now, and although there are still a few perks, the downsides WAY outweigh the upsides. Always have a backup career. One failed medical, busted checkride, or accident, and you'll be hard pressed to keep a paycheck.

Yes it falls under part 91 BUT I'm not sure if FARs trump Indiana Code. If FARs apply to Indiana's state laws then, yes we use the FAA's definition of Part 135 as Charter. If not then we use whatever Indiana definite Charter and Commercial flight as. Since the FAA calls charter "Air Taxi" and what most people think of Commercial as "Air Carrier" the fact that Indiana doesn't use either of those terms makes me at least think they didn't reference the FARs for definitions of those flights and an anti-gun prosecutor could want to take the wide sweeping definition of the states terms even though the legislation's writers only meant commercial airlines and charters. I need either "commercial" flights defined somewhere in the Indiana Code or a legal precedent case of what it means otherwise I really feel somebody could easily construe the law to say if money changed hands it's a commercial flight.

Thanks for that advice. It kinda struck a nerve, and here's my response (again you struck a nerve so it's going to get a little ranty).

While I don't have tons of experience, I've been around the block some too. I've been flying now for 10 years, making money at it for 7, flight instructing for 6 and out of "flight school" for 5.

I understand where you are coming from but I feel you were shoehorning me into your idea of a brand new pilot/instructor. Even then I think you need to give that advice to someone before they spend $50,000 on flight certificates I think you have a valid point in that you need to know what you are getting yourself into before hand.

Yes, I could make more money than what my flight instructor job pays me easily in other jobs that are available to me. I have a second aviation related job that pays most of my bills. But when it comes down to it I love flight instructing. If I couldn't fly, I would teach something else. I think we need good flight instructors for both the people you say shouldn't get into it and those that want to do it as a hobby. I hope that my students feel that I am one of the good instructors.

Failed Checkrides aren't that much of a problem for me since I don't have to do a 121 or 135 checkout every 6 months. The medical issues is there for every pilot, to use that as a reason not to do it is ridiculous. However, as you pointed out to ignore the fact that you could loose and need a backup plan is ridiculous as well. Accident might do it in my flying job, maybe if I hurt myself to where I couldn't get a medical or it caused the FAA to take my certificate away if I was negligent. But even then I know of a friend of mine who had an accident while in flight school working on his commercial and he still got a job and is now a captain at his company (which is either a commuter or cargo company, can't remember) Now I'm sure if he balled one up now he'd be out the door and his chances with the majors already are not so hot. But he is still enjoying himself and making decent money.

I think too often we oversell the big bad major airline captain's job and the big bad salary as what you have to strive for as a professional pilot and forget that there plenty of other jobs out there that will do just fine if you don't mind not getting wrapped up in the money. Yes, I don't think it is the best industry to work in the economic sense but if you got into for just that reason you were wrong to do so in the first place and somebody didn't give or you didn't listen to that advice you just gave me. To be a pilot you have to do it for the flying, not the money because as you allude to the industry will chew you up and spit you out if you don't love it and still a good chance it will if you do. I've came to the realization that my life won't end if I loose my certificates or stop flying, but it will leave me with a bit of a void.

 

[shawkpilot]

I wasn't trying to come down on you, I really didn't care how much flying or experience you had, my advise would have been the same. I wasn't assuming that you were a new Flight instructor, I was there once too. I'm just relaying some advise. If you're not interested, that's fine. I too have been around the block for a while, I'm the captain of a private jet, and have been making money in flight for almost 20 years. I just keep thinking to myself, what are my other skills, how can I support my family if this career takes a dump. I've known a lot of pilots who get trapped into a job because they get a black mark on their ticket (noone else will hire them) whether it was their fault or not. I'm going to stop now, I was trying to think about guns.....

Good luck in your career.

 

[SavageEagle]

I've loved flying all my life of 26 years. Growing up near Evansville, MillionAire(sp?) Flight School did their practice literally over our house everyday. Watching them stall, come out of it, make turns, dives, etc just got me hooked. Although we had a scare in the early 90's when a Vietnam Vet, living in a ditch near his burnt down home, was having flashbacks and popping shots at the rookies. Apparently he did this alot but never hit anything so they left him alone. That is until he ACTUALLY HIT A PLANE! We watched from my back yard as he (the instructor) limped the plane back to the Evansville Airport in his shot up, smoking cessna. Scared us all to death.

I had a chance to ride in a 172 Skyhawk. Yes it's cramped, but man what a rush! I know it's already been suggested, but I would have to suggest ankle carry with a small revolver. If you need more than 2-3 shots in a cessna, God help you. I know reaching for an ankle holster would be somewhat obstructed by the stick, but other than having it in a bag, which would be hard to get to in a struggle, I can't fathom any other logical choice that would allow it to stay concealed almost 100%. Unless there's some way you can mount it inside the cabin somewhere... Considered crafting a secret "Oh ****" panel to hide mine in my truck. If you own the aircraft that might be an option. Unless it's "partial ownership" or the "company's" plane... Even then there are ways and places you can temporarily mount something within reach...

 

[Scutter01]

Apparently he did this alot but never hit anything so they left him alone.

 

[SavageEagle]

Ok, more accuratly, he wasn't arrested until he finally hit the plane.

Keep in mind, early 90's, small towns in rural Gibson County, easy going people who all know each other, in a laid back period of time. All before 9/11, hell, before the Toyota plant even CONSIDERED moving to Gibson County and the Power Plant was still owned by PSI Energy (now Duke Energy)...

LOL BTW, Nice version of Red October... I can hear the Russian Sean Connery voice trying to say "RFC792 ICMP type 8 Packet" with a straight face...

And also, you should be able to look up the incident in an Evansville news website's archives. I'd do it if I didn't ahve to get up at 5 in the morning...

 

[MattCFII]

I think I heard that story when I was a student at Vincennes University. The way I heard it was that the student and instructor were practicing turns about a point in his general area. The rest as you stated, he was mentally unstable and shot the plane. Supposedly, the instructor was hit in the leg but as ok and the plane was still available for rent at one of the SW IN with the patch job visible. It was told as a reason not to do fly low over people's houses for too long because they might start calling the FAA or even shooting at you.

Yeah, ankle carry might be a good solution, definitely not too deployable in the plane with the yoke but again, I've all but ruled out having to use it in the plane. I just want a method where I possibly can keep it around me while in the plane if it is legal to do so. How does that extra weight on the ankle feel all day? I'm going to have to ride the fine line of keeping the holster high enough that it doesn't become visible when preflighting but not so far up that I can't get to it.

I've been trying out more and more off body carry for the last week or so and it seems to work ok for now.

 

[SavageEagle]

I think I heard that story when I was a student at Vincennes University. The way I heard it was that the student and instructor were practicing turns about a point in his general area. The rest as you stated, he was mentally unstable and shot the plane. Supposedly, the instructor was hit in the leg but as ok and the plane was still available for rent at one of the SW IN with the patch job visible. It was told as a reason not to do fly low over people's houses for too long because they might start calling the FAA or even shooting at you.

Yea, I forgot about where he got shot in the leg. I didn't know you could still rent it as MillionAir went out of buisness years ago as I understood it. At least their hangar wasn't there anymore before I moved to Indy in '97. A side note about the guy who shot the plane... He was a millionaire. But because he was psycho, he never had his house rebuilt, he kept his money literally buried in jars all around his yard, and supposedly had to scare away "treasure hunters" who he thought was "charlie".

I'm just glad someone could verify the story because everyone always thinks i'm a fibber when I tell the story! LOL

Hope you can get things worked out and keep us informed on what works for you. I know it's gotta be hard doing the preflight let alone in the aircraft...

 

[MattCFII]

The leg is the place I heard he was shot at too. Yeah, MillionAir is definitely not there anymore, but the plane was suppose to be owned by somebody else now and not at Evansville anymore, someplace like Washington or or other smaller airport. Can't remember where it was claimed to be at. It's been 7 years or so since I heard the story.

On the carrying method front I've been doing a lot of research on AIWB carry although I might need to loose a some pounds to do it.

 

[MattCFII]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I've been AIWBing with a cheap leather holster and it works really well for my purposes. I have a FIST K4 on order, it rides a little higher so I may have to loose a few more pounds for it not to print but overall I must say AIWB is very fast and doesn't cause problems for my situation YMMV

 

[cosermann]

I got a pocket holster yesterday when my latest CTD order came in. Just a cheapy Uncle Mikes which is actually suppose to be one of their better products. So far I'm not impressed, it stays on the gun most times when I draw from a cargo pocket. I'm not sure if it needs broken in a little so the gun will come out more smoothly.

If you're interested in a pocket holster, take a look at the DeSantis Nemesis. The exterior has kind of a tacky texture while the interior is smooth promoting the situation where the holster stays in the pocket on the draw. Works pretty well.