Handgun, into rifle, back into handgun?

[NateIU10]

This has been discussed in these two threads:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/16699-handgun_or_long_gun.html
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ts_lmt_lauer_ar-15_pistol_lower_complete.html

I was under the impression that once you take a handgun and transform it into a rifle (as per the USC in the first link, whether it be Mech-Tec, AR15, etc), it cannot be turned back into a pistol legally. Removing the stock and trying to return it to a pistol would technically be an illegal SBR. Am I wrong? Reading something incorrectly?

I was also under the impression that the T/C case was interepreted by the BATFE to only apply to that gun specifically.

Thanks NFA gurus

 

[bigcraig]

It is tough to answer the question, as the correct answer changes periodically.

 

[flightsimmer]

This has been discussed in these two threads:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/16699-handgun_or_long_gun.html
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ts_lmt_lauer_ar-15_pistol_lower_complete.html

I was under the impression that once you take a handgun and transform it into a rifle (as per the USC in the first link, whether it be Mech-Tec, AR15, etc), it cannot be turned back into a pistol legally. Removing the stock and trying to return it to a pistol would technically be an illegal SBR. Am I wrong? Reading something incorrectly?

I was also under the impression that the T/C case was interepreted by the BATFE to only apply to that gun specifically.

Thanks NFA gurus

I own and use a Mech-Tech Systems carbine in 10 mm and I use my 1911 .45 ACP lower (Frame) on it so that I can use both my Delta Elite pistol and the carbine at the same time. It is not illegal to switch back and forth from carbine to pistol or pistol to carbine accept in California (wouldn't you know it). The pistol frame is the only part that has a serial number on it and the upper unit or carbine does not. You can buy it or sell it like a brick or a baseball bat, you need no forms to fill out.

Quote the specific law and where it's posted if you think I'm wrong and I will relent.

To varify this check out Mech Tech Systems, Inc.

Have a great week Guy's and Girl's

 

[NateIU10]

I own and use a Mech-Tech Systems carbine in 10 mm and I use my 1911 .45 ACP lower (Frame) on it so that I can use both my Delta Elite pistol and the carbine at the same time. It is not illegal to switch back and forth from carbine to pistol or pistol to carbine accept in California (wouldn't you know it). The pistol frame is the only part that has a serial number on it and the upper unit or carbine does not. You can buy it or sell it like a brick or a baseball bat, you need no forms to fill out.

Quote the specific law and where it's posted if you think I'm wrong and I will relent.

To varify this check out Mech Tech Systems, Inc.

Have a great week Guy's and Girl's

I cannot find anything about legality on their site. Also, why would it matter that the lower is registered? You can buy AR uppers that can be used in NFA configs, but you are responsible for assembling one legally. No forms, no transfer, just your responsibility to use it correctly. The "firearm" part isn't always required to be serialized either, it can be placed on the barrel. Again, once you put the conversion on the pistol lower, it meets the definition of a rifle. Once in that configuration, turning it back into a "pistol" is creating a SBR.

 

[ashylarry]

So if you put a 16" upper on a pistol lower and then put your <16" upper back on it, then it is an "illegal SBR" ?

 

[NateIU10]

The way I read it yes. It meets the USC definition of a rifle, then changing it to the low OAL and barrel make it a SBR.

 

[ashylarry]

hmmm...even having the pistol buffer tube and not the stock? confusing ****.

 

[NateIU10]

confusing ****.

That's the founding charter of the BATFE

 

[flightsimmer]

(snip)> I cannot find anything about legality on their site. Also, why would it matter that the lower is registered? You can buy AR uppers that can be used in NFA configs, but you are responsible for assembling one legally. No forms, no transfer, just your responsibility to use it correctly. The "firearm" part isn't always required to be serialized either, it can be placed on the barrel. Again, once you put the conversion on the pistol lower, it meets the definition of a rifle. Once in that configuration, turning it back into a "pistol" is creating a SBR.

Hi NateIU10;

It's right there on the front page of their web site in red letters.

Legal Alert: This product is for sale to California residents under limited conditions only. Although the product of itself is legal, the resulting combination with a pistol frame becomes illegal under California law. Please contact Mech-Tech for details relative to sales in CA. At this time we know of no other states where the combination is not legal but we caution everyone to become aware of relative state and local laws.

Also I never mentioned anything about registration at all, anywhere. It's only that when you buy a handgun they record the serial number for the legal transfer of the handgun just as they do for long guns. The Mech-Tech carbine (Upper unit) is not even considered a firearm and as such does not require transfer paperwork. Were not talking Class 3 weapons here.

Look at it this way. I can buy all of the necessary parts to assemble a model 1911 pistol without any paperwork at all but when I purchase the frame to make it all work, then I have to do the transfer paperwork for the frame only.

All of this applies to the Mech-Tech carbine. I know nothing at all about the AR-15 or any other model.

Have a great week Guy's and Girl's, Dan.

 

[NateIU10]

Once you put the upper on, how is that not a rifle as defined in the US code? If it meets that definition, then it must follow the rules set forth for that weapon. Thompson/Center took the BATF to court over this, and won, but the BATF says it only relates to that company/firearm. When I said "registered" I meant serialized, as I pointed out in the next couple sentences. You're saying that since the lower is transferred as a pistol originally, it is always a pistol, and that since the upper is just an upper, it doesn't matter. I disagree.

I AM talking class 3, as I'm saying putting it back into a pistol, after making it a rifle, makes you in possession of an illegal SBR the way I read the USC.

 

[flightsimmer]

Hi Guy's and Girl's;

Yes, I have a rant that I would like to get off of my chest so to speak.

Law's and rule's.

You see I'm a (real world) pilot and I own a plane. I'm also a gun owner. Both reguire law's and rules and I accept that as being necessary. What urp's me too no end is when someone say's some one is violating some law or rule but cannot back it up with chapter and verse.

For instance, I was at Pop Gun's (no intended reflection) a long time back and I took my newly aquired Mech-Tech carbine there with me without the lower unit (1911 frame) to see about getting a Red Dot sight for it and one of the guy's behind the counter say's "I don't think that's legal" and I said "Well when you find out for sure then let me know, untill then just keep your mouth shut".

I get so sick and tired of people saying something like that, especially pilot's. I here it all of the time it seems like. Then they get into a big long discussion and quote chapter and verse (sometimes incorrectly) and then end up saying something like "it all depends on how you interpret it". I see the same thing all the time in our court system. For Heaven's sake, if you can't show it to me in writing or tell me where to find it, keep it too your self.

OK, I feel better now.

Have a great week everybody, Dan.

 

[NateIU10]

So, how did that answer my question posed to you?

The USC is clear. The definitions are clear. The action of putting this kit on a handgun, turns it into a rifle, as per the USC (the code and definitions are in the links in the original post.) So, I hate when people say something's legal, but don't provide any proof

 

[ashylarry]

 

[NateIU10]

Pass some this way

 

[ashylarry]

Pass some this way

no way man. shits expensive!

 

[flightsimmer]

So, how did that answer my question posed to you?

The USC is clear. The definitions are clear. The action of putting this kit on a handgun, turns it into a rifle, as per the USC (the code and definitions are in the links in the original post.) So, I hate when people say something's legal, but don't provide any proof

Opp's, did I miss the links you mentioned? I'm sorry I didn't see them (and haven't found them yet). I didn't say it was legal. I was going by the Mech-Tech web site info that said they knew of no other states except California where it was illegal. Just copy and paste the relevent code here for all to see or show me where to find it and that will clear it up. Oh and buy the way I'm not familiar with your abbreviations (USC, OAL and SBR) so please help me out.

Have agreat day, Dan.

 

[ashylarry]

Dan I believe Nate is asking a question in this thread, not going around giving facts without proof. And OAL is overall length and SBR is short barrel rifle.

 

[flightsimmer]

This is what I was going by. Is there something else that I'm not aware of?

Legality Note The CCU is classified as a handgun accessory-not a firearm, and is exempt from Federal regulation. This means that it can be sold and shipped directly to the customer without any of the hassle usually associated with purchasing a firearm. However, it is the buyer's responsibility to ensure that he is within the bounds of state and/or local statutes. We cannot ship the CCU internationally or to California.

 

[NateIU10]

USC-United States Code (particularly 18USC922 as it pertains to firearms.)

OAL-Overall length

SBR-Short barreled rifle

(7) The term "rifle" means a weapon
designed or redesigned, made or re-
made, and intended to be fired from the
shoulder and designed or redesigned
and made or remade to use the energy
of an explosive to fire only a single pro-
jectile through a rifled bore for each
single pull of the trigger.

Per the criminal code.

You are making a SBR when turning it from a rifle back into a handgun. Again, from the criminal code:

(8) The term "short-barreled rifle"
means a rifle having one or more bar-
rels less than sixteen inches in length
and any weapon made from a rifle
(whether by alteration, modification, or
otherwise) if such weapon, as modified,
has an overall length of less than
twenty-six inches.

 

[NateIU10]

Again, barrels and such aren't firearms and aren't regulated as such. It is also legal to turn a handgun into a rifle. I'm saying that is what you're doing when using such accessories, and therefore you cannot turn it back into a pistol as it would be a SBR.