Gun show loophole closing?

[kjdoski]

IANAL but, IMO, a background check alone doesn't satisfy this. The seller must hold the FFL if they meet the definition of selling with intent to profit.

Doing a person to person transfer with a 4473 done by a third party would just provide a record of the sale.

I do think that the intent of this is to force universal background checks at some point.

I agree, but kind of a moot point, since you can't do a NICS check unless you're an FFL. So, I believe the ATF has effectively outlawed all person-to-person sales by making ANY sale basically a "dealer" sale.

 

[kjdoski]

I think until the new ruling is overturned (which I'm sure it will be), the only "legal" way of selling firearms will be for both parties to meet at an FFL, have the FFL take "possession" of the firearm(s) on their log, then "sell" the firearm(s) to the buyer after a 4473 and NICS completion.

What no one is talking about is what if you're the BUYER of a firearm FTF now? Are you not knowingly participating in an illegal purchase if it's not going through an FFL? This ruling is SO far over the line that "over reach" doesn't even start to do it "justice."

 

[firecadet613]

I think until the new ruling is overturned (which I'm sure it will be), the only "legal" way of selling firearms will be for both parties to meet at an FFL, have the FFL take "possession" of the firearm(s) on their log, then "sell" the firearm(s) to the buyer after a 4473 and NICS completion.

What no one is talking about is what if you're the BUYER of a firearm FTF now? Are you not knowingly participating in an illegal purchase if it's not going through an FFL? This ruling is SO far over the line that "over reach" doesn't even start to do it "justice."

Doesn't this all hinge on the seller doing it "for profit"?

 

[kjdoski]

Doesn't this all hinge on the seller doing it "for profit"?

You'd think so, BUT, the new rule establishes "presumptions of intent" to make a profit, among which is posting the firearm for sale on line...

 

[bobzilla]

Doesn't this all hinge on the seller doing it "for profit"?

Prove they didn't make a profit.

 

[firecadet613]

Prove they didn't make a profit.

We're almost here...

 

[bobzilla]

We're almost here...

View attachment 352917

We've been there since the AFT was created.

 

[Stengun]

We have substituted government approval for the common sense of knowing the buyer or asking some basic questions to assess the buyer. That is how the old 4473 worked for dealers and most private sellers.

 

[shootersix]

as I said before don’t make a profit on the gun!…sell the gun for a dollar…however the box that gos with it is a collector’s item and it costs 350 dollars!

 

[2in1evtime]

So if the unfortunate person that gets charged with selling a gun for supposed profit, will they tied up in court, massive legal fees since we know how the government works against the citizens, just how many people will be able to afford this for one? Lot of legal people by firearms in person because they don't want a paper trail from a dealer and the 4473 which the government is now putting into a computer base?? Selling a rifle like a m1 garland bought in early 80's for present market value is that considered a profit or inflation?

 

[KellyinAvon]

So if the unfortunate person that gets charged with selling a gun for supposed profit, will they tied up in court, massive legal fees since we know how the government works against the citizens, just how many people will be able to afford this for one? Lot of legal people by firearms in person because they don't want a paper trail from a dealer and the 4473 which the government is now putting into a computer base?? Selling a rifle like a m1 garland bought in early 80's for present market value is that considered a profit or inflation?

The people who say you are "engaged in the business..." are the same ones who won't issue you a license to be engaged in the business. When things (like "profit") are vague as hell it can mean anything they want.

The LR International Airport Director thread is below.

ATF Agent Shot

The Supreme Court has recognized several exceptions to the warrant requirement rule, including immediate loss of evidence under the exigent circumstances rule. Not saying that this fits this particular situation, I don't feel that it does. But that rule is a thing. SCOTUS gets things wrong...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[gregr]

Just be aware and expect the unexpected. The jack-booted thugs at the atf executed an airport executive in Little Rock, seemingly, just because they could. These corrupt, criminal goons are worse than Gestapo, and they will murder any of us too.

 

[kjdoski]

Lawsuits already filed by KY AG and TX AG, so we'll see how long this rule lasts before the injunctions kick in. Since the pistol brace rule was stopped by legal action, I think this one is going to be short lived...

 

[Brian's Surplus]

 

[Magyars]

Didn't watch the video but I suspect it's the same Info.

Attorney General Ken Paxton Secures Temporary Restraining Order Against Biden Administration, Stopping Unlawful ATF Rule from Taking Effect

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has secured a temporary restraining order from a federal judge that prevents an unlawful rule promulgated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (“ATF”) from taking effect while the case is litigated.

www.texasattorneygeneral.gov

 

[tude]

Does a person have to be a member of one of the organizations or a citizen of one of the states bringing the lawsuits for this ruling to apply to them? Is this ruling a blanket "stay" for everyone, everywhere?

 

[Brian's Surplus]

Does a person have to be a member of one of the organizations or a citizen of one of the states bringing the lawsuits for this ruling to apply to them? Is this ruling a blanket "stay" for everyone, everywhere?

The way I understand it, this injunction completely prohibits ATF from enforcing this rule at all, until there is a final ruling.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Doesn't this all hinge on the seller doing it "for profit"?

Profit can be a squishy definition. Just ask the IRS.

According to the IRS, the simple act of you not owing money today that you owed yesterday on a loan is considered income. (profit).

Take out a loan. Fail to pay back that loan and go into default. If the lender writes it off, you get a 1099 for the amount of the write-off because the IRS considers that "free money" so you now owe taxes on that newfound "income".

I fully expect the ATF to follow that same logic. "You have cash today that you didnt have yesterday. Profit.", cleverly ignoring the fact that you are now poorer in assets than you were before.

And even if you take that into consideration, how do they prove you didnt actually take a loss on the item? How will they prove I did? Them charging me with the crime based on me making a profit without the proof I made a profit is unconstitutional.
Which I guess is to be expected for an unconstitutional branch of the govt.

 

[firecadet613]

Profit can be a squishy definition. Just ask the IRS.

According to the IRS, the simple act of you not owing money today that you owed yesterday on a loan is considered income. (profit).

Take out a loan. Fail to pay back that loan and go into default. If the lender writes it off, you get a 1099 for the amount of the write-off because the IRS considers that "free money" so you now owe taxes on that newfound "income".

I fully expect the ATF to follow that same logic. "You have cash today that you didnt have yesterday. Profit.", cleverly ignoring the fact that you are now poorer in assets than you were before.

And even if you take that into consideration, how do they prove you didnt actually take a loss on the item? How will they prove I did? Them charging me with the crime based on me making a profit without the proof I made a profit is unconstitutional.
Which I guess is to be expected for an unconstitutional branch of the govt.

Typically govt BS.... but it's all a mute point since the injunction...

 

[Cameramonkey]

Typically govt BS.... but it's all a mute point since the injunction...

As long as it sticks and is eventually killed permanently.