Forum concerns

[christman]

As far as infractions go...Is there a reason why infractions aren't made public? I'm genuinely curious? I mean, outside of people seeing someone was infracted on a post and running with why it happened...Thus thread jacking the original OP.

 

[VUPDblue]

I don't believe I have ever had a thread closed, but I have seen many that have been. However, if you as MODS don't currently inform OP's of the closing, I think this would be a wonderful idea via pm. It would give the OP a direct line to the person who handled the closure. At the very least, make it mandatory for the MOD who closes it to make a final post in the thread about the reason it was closed. ( I realize some MODS do that already, but not in all cases.)

It would go a long way in eliminating people's questions over fair practice in thread closures by getting all the "theories" of the reason it was closed out of the way.

I believe that is a fair request. Bear in mind that while this would solve one issue it may create another in that some folks will disagree with the reasoning behind the closure.

 

[Andre46996]

You are not entirely wrong on this point. Although I believe we all try to deal with both parties equally, I have seen members dog each other out (e.g., Cru and SJ; Big and IJ, HandK and OneBadV8, etc.); however, because I KNOW they are joking, I let it pass. While the same thing may occur with two members where I'm not sure of their relationship and will intercede with a PM or a warning infraction. I can see where this can be considered a double-standard, based on what is perceived to be favoritism.

Sometimes this happens...

However just recently I may have been a part of a little ribbing that when looked at from the outside would have probably been considered insulting another member. However after it going a couple of rounds it actually became a game and I can now say I would consider that person an "internet friend" if your wondering who it was MinuteMan (Make sure you look that up on Urban Dictionary)...

Yeah this place is like High School or the race track or my garage, sometimes it is normal for guys to insult one another. Go watch Gran Torino the Barber shop is a good example.

I consider myself lucky in meeting 3 of the MODS it made it easier to view them as people and I am sure them meeting me made them realize I am a JERK in real life too... I actually am not but I am sort of abrasive at times.

What I have seen I went through once here.

A member gets a smack on the wrist for bad behavior, it then becomes a pissing contest, most coming right to the line but not crossing it. I have also had the unanswered PMs that really get blood boiling. When you have been a contributing member both input wise and financially and then seem left in limbo when a issue does arise it makes it worse.

Just my do with it what you will.

I must say I have seen a little bit of the uneven enforcement. Let's just say I know a member who was banned for language and the same day a former mod posted a video with the GD word a couple seconds in, somebody new probably reported that post and was then banned while the video stayed up.

 

[christman]

it may create another in that some folks will disagree with the reasoning behind the closure.

Disagreeing about fact is one thing. But currently, according to what we have heard from MODS today, there is confusion or misinformation in the reasons behind closures.


I would think it would be easier to defend the stated fact that was posted as the closure than to combat the various "theories" or out right made-up-lies from members who claim to know and spread discord amongst the community. Which gets held onto for days/weeks and turned into grudges down the road from people who weren't even a part of the OP. Thus, making more people against one another over false information.

At least with the closure reason post, MODS don't have to worry about spuratic uprisings over information floating around with no real base waiting for it to explode out of the blue. They can just simply refer to the close post.

 

[Armed Citizen]

I joined this site because I wanted to learn about guns, I enjoy guns, and love talking about them. I don't know alot so I wanted to be around people that did. At first it was a blast, I was an INGO-ADICT! Then something happened, I noticed more hate-filled post and I got caught up in them and joined in, I was COMPLETELY WRONG.
Then I started seeing that I was got up in the same hype. I made a thread in regards to God, you would have thought I spit on someones mom, the hate came in buckets. I PM'ed Que about it. He is a very honorable and repectful man.

 

[VUPDblue]

As far as infractions go...Is there a reason why infractions aren't made public? I'm genuinely curious? I mean, outside of people seeing someone was infracted on a post and running with why it happened...Thus thread jacking the original OP.

We don't discuss infractions with the membership at large because frankly, it is none of their business. Like a speeding ticket, it's between the person who issued it and the person who received it. If that person wants to talk about it or air concerns about it, they should PM a MOD. There's really nothing about an infraction that is the business of anyone except the person who received it.

 

[esrice]

As far as infractions go...Is there a reason why infractions aren't made public?

See, infractions are really just simple "reminders". They don't actually "do" anything. What they do allow, however, is all Staff to see what action was taken against which member. If we did this via PMs, no other Mods would know that the issue had been addressed already.

Unfortunately people take infractions too seriously, and therefore we're trying to keep people from feeling "ashamed" because they have them.

 

[VUPDblue]

I would think it would be easier to defend the stated fact that was posted as the closure than to combat the various "theories" or out right made-up-lies from members who claim to know and spread discord amongst the community. Which gets held onto for days/weeks and turned into grudges down the road from people who weren't even a part of the OP. Thus, making more people against one another over false information.

At least with the closure reason post, MODS don't have to worry about spuratic uprisings over information floating around with no real base waiting for it to explode out of the blue. They can just simply refer to the close post.

That's a valid point and I agree. If this will cut down on some of the MOD-directed conspiracy theories then I'll suggest it as something we should be adhering to.

 

[christman]

I love open dialogue.

 

[VUPDblue]

See, infractions are really just simple "reminders". They don't actually "do" anything. What they do allow, however, is all Staff to see what action was taken against which member. If we did this via PMs, no other Mods would know that the issue had been addressed already.

Unfortunately people take infractions too seriously, and therefore we're trying to keep people from feeling "ashamed" because they have them.

As usual, Evan puts it so much more eloquently than I do. This post here is terrific.

 

[JetGirl]

See, infractions are really just simple "reminders". They don't actually "do" anything.

Then there really is no point to them. If they don't lead up to x-amount of infractions = x-amount of days banned, then why have them. If it works as you've stated, you're just a mom telling a kid "you're in trouble if I get to '3'...One!....I mean it!...TWO!!....You better stop mister....ONNNE....I'm serious...TWOOOOO...That's it, now! ...ONE!!!....

 

[esrice]

Yeah this place is like High School or the race track or my garage, sometimes it is normal for guys to insult one another. Go watch Gran Torino the Barber shop is a good example.

That may be how you personally feel about INGO, but we've said on multiple occasions to treat people as if you were a guest in Fenway's house. We're not trying to give Fenway a God complex, but we're trying to convey the level of respect that we're looking for amongst members.

I must say I have seen a little bit of the uneven enforcement. Let's just say I know a member who was banned for language and the same day a former mod posted a video with the GD word a couple seconds in, somebody new probably reported that post and was then banned while the video stayed up.

Was the person really banned for a simple language violation, or was there more to the case? Because we don't ban people for language violations.

Are you also suggesting that a Mod posted an video not in line with the rules, and then banned the person who reported it? Or is that just your guess as to what happened?

I'm not trying to pick on you Mike, but I just want to point out that maybe some of the overall angst is due to people not having all the facts all the time, and jumping to the worst conclusions.

Agree or disagree?

 

[christman]

Valid point Jetgirl.

Also, Rice, its good to know that people don't get banned for simple language infractions, but I must ask...At what point do they become complex?

 

[VUPDblue]

Then there really is no point to them. If they don't lead up to x-amount of infractions = x-amount of days banned, then why have them. If it works as you've stated, you're just a mom telling a kid "you're in trouble if I get to '3'...One!....I mean it!...TWO!!....You better stop mister....ONNNE....I'm serious...TWOOOOO...That's it, now! ...ONE!!!....

But there IS a point to them. First, they are a vehicle designed to keep all the MODs on the same page in references to a given situation. Second, they are reminders for the member earning one to follow the rules.

In my experience, more often than not I get a "sorry it won't happen again" response when I issue an infraction. For that, they are great.

 

[christman]

In my experience, more often than not I get a "sorry it won't happen again" response when I issue an infraction. For that, they are great.

I think I neg repped Rice for giving me a classified infraction once. I can't remember.

 

[esrice]

Then there really is no point to them. If they don't lead up to x-amount of infractions = x-amount of days banned, then why have them.

Because they help establish a pattern of behavior, sorted by member, viewable by all the Staff at any time.

 

[christman]

Speaking of classified infractions....

I know we are speaking about equal treatment, but I would also like to mention the terrible amount of classified rule breaking that I assume goes unnoticed most of the time only because I see the people break the same rules over again in new classifieds they make over time.

2 of my big ones I notice are

"Pictures coming soon"

and people deleting the price when sold. I HATE THAT. How am I supposed to know what something is going for if the prices are always being deleting or changed to sold and SPF....

 

[tyler34]

heres my understanding of recent INGO happenings:

someones friend gets in trouble or banned, the friend of banned/infracted sees some sort of injustice/bias so they create threads to stir the pot or "shed light on the bias" almost with a purpose of getting in trouble or getting said thread closed so they can say ooh look I got in trouble or my thread got locked while so and so's thread didn't and it was far more inflammatory or they were far more rude and disrespectful, I can't believe INGO is so bias other forums are far better and I hate INGO.

am I wrong or missing something?

 

[esrice]

I think I neg repped Rice for giving me a classified infraction once. I can't remember.

I don't remember. Is that bad?

 

[JetGirl]

But there IS a point to them. First, they are a vehicle designed to keep all the MODs on the same page in references to a given situation. Second, they are reminders for the member earning one to follow the rules.

In my experience, more often than not I get a "sorry it won't happen again" response when I issue an infraction. For that, they are great.

Are you saying that I could call someone (or different someones) a PoopHead in every single one of my posts, and all it would get me is 6k + "reminders" that it's not cool?
Come on.
There's got to be a defining point where the "infractions" actually mean something to the member and they're not just a tag for the mods to see "VUPD wuz here".