Embassy questions

[hornadylnl]

So if a group of tin hat wearing, family tree don't fork types took it upon themselves to bomb a foreign embassy on US soil, would it be an act of war perpetrated by the US government? Would the country of that embassy be right in declaring war on us?

Since the US bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, should they have declared war on us and bombed us back to the stone ages? Were they ******* for not doing so?

 

[mrjarrell]

Everyone's more than a bit upset by this at the moment and they're spouting off, using their emotions and not their reason. Attacking an embassy is NOT an act of war. If it was there would have been many more wars fought than we have been in. It is a violation of international treaties and a sign that the host government doesn't give a **** about the safety of diplomats and the rule of law. When I lived in Egypt that would not have been tolerated and there would have been severe and deadly consequences for the perpetrators. Of course they had a dictator ruling then and now they have an elected government that has yet to find its footing and is seemingly in bed with the Salafists. This storming of the Cairo compound had the governments tacit approval and that's something we'll need to address in the coming days. If congress has a pair they'll cut aid to Egypt in retaliation. But, we won't go to war. Nor should we.

 

[mrjarrell]

And we have to remember that this was the of a minority. We still have friends in Libya. Many of whom share our grief.

‫مظاهرة بنغازي لنصرة الرسول واستنكار مقت٠السÙير الامريكي | Facebook‬

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I only buy that pacifist stuff partway, MrJ. Whose responsibility is it to protect those in an embassy? a) The host government? Libya in this case? b) the guest government? US in this case? Whose job is it? It's that simple. If it is OURS, then we are wrong for not firing back and defending sovereign territory. And Obama should be excoriated if his orders prevented that. That's gross negligence at a minimum. If it is Libya's, then their government is complicit in it by their inaction - gross negligence at a minimum and they should be asking for our forgiveness for the oversight that caused the death of our Ambassador.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[mrjarrell]

The host country provides protection outside the embassy grounds. They're not allowed inside the compounds. Internal security is provided by the Marine Security Guards and the Department of State security guys, and a few private, unarmed security guards (usually foreign nationals). The Marines in Cairo apparently managed to keep the crowds out of the Embassy proper, despite not being more active in its defence where the compound was concerned. The consular building in Benghazi is another story. It doesn't look like they had a significant Marine presence and external security was overwhelmed by the crowds, (not that they were probably top notch, either way). Bear in mind that the people killed were also "rescued" and taken to local hospitals by Libyan citizens on the scene. That says a lot. And there's no "pacifist" stuff going on. Just a recognition of reality not based on anger.

As for the host governments "asking forgiveness", I'd imagine that's already happened. No doubt the news here will not report on that, because it won't fit the narrative.

 

[hornadylnl]

So are we responsible for the security of foreign embassies in the US? If Jim Bob and his muslim hatin militia buddies manage to get an attack on the Saudi Embassy before the US government can stop them, is the US government automatically complicit?

If the US places Americans in an embassy in a hostile country without the proper means to defend themselves, is that the fault of the host country or the US?

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

1) Then the buck stops with Obama, and Hillary as Sec of State, to the degree that our preparations were not sufficient. They did not take care of their people. Fair enough if the Libyans "rescued" them - good on them.
2) The buck also stops with the Libyan government - weak though it may be. For not having enough of a civil defense to be able to control the mobs from getting to overwhelming numbers. Their apology should be swift, public, and loud enough to be heard.

It is the responsibility of the Libyan government to bring those who did this to justice. In a country with their stern but admirable code of hospitality I would imagine that some hangings would occur. If not, they are complicit. The Koran specifically requires the protect "even of an infidel - if he share your salt - he shall have the protection of your house". Bad paraphrasing, but the point is clear. And we should expect their laws to be followed and the perps brought to justice.

As for the American portion of the responsibility - any bowing and scraping that Obama and Hillary wish to do should be done to the families of the those killed - and not to their killers. And to the degree that our planning and protection was lacking - responsibility should be shouldered and the situation remedied.

I'm not holding my breath.

Sadly, I suspect that the odds of the Libyans shouldering their responsibility in this are better than the others.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

So are we responsible for the security of foreign embassies in the US? If Jim Bob and his muslim hatin militia buddies manage to get an attack on the Saudi Embassy before the US government can stop them, is the US government automatically complicit?

If the US places Americans in an embassy in a hostile country without the proper means to defend themselves, is that the fault of the host country or the US?

I think Mr J is saying that there is some of both...

And if this happened here - a mob rioting outside the embassy of East Buttcrackistan or something - wouldn't our police ensure that it didn't get out of hand? And if it did, wouldn't the perps be arrested and tried?

We have the right to expect the same of them.

But if we were also negligent in protecting our embassy - then heads need to roll in our State Dept for that.

 

[hornadylnl]

The main thing I've learned through all of these embassy threads here is that most don't have the diplomatic skills to last more than a few days on Survivor, let alone determine foreign policy.

 

[mrjarrell]

Give them a chance. It's been less than 24 hours. Hell, even cops here in the US take longer to solve a murder. Libya is still in a chaotic situation. It may take a long time before anyone is caught. But, just like here, criminals talk and someone will likely rat them out. As for your points.
1. I'd say security inside the embassy was reasonable. They didn't get into the chancellery or the admin building or the towers or the Marine house, as far as we know. So, security worked as it was supposed to. We lost a flag. Not bad. The Egyptians definitely dropped the ball outside the gates, tho and that should be addressed, (and likely will be). On a regular day the embassy there only had a few cops outside the gates, maybe half a dozen or so. And most of them are **** poor farm boys who've been drafted and barely know how to operate the AK's they've been given. When the crowd got bad they likely beat feet.
I'll be interested to see what the fallout is.

 

[mrjarrell]

Report: Drones headed to Libya - POLITICO.com

 

[hornadylnl]

Give them a chance. It's been less than 24 hours. Hell, even cops here in the US take longer to solve a murder. Libya is still in a chaotic situation. It may take a long time before anyone is caught. But, just like here, criminals talk and someone will likely rat them out. As for your points.
1. I'd say security inside the embassy was reasonable. They didn't get into the chancellery or the admin building or the towers or the Marine house, as far as we know. So, security worked as it was supposed to. We lost a flag. Not bad. The Egyptians definitely dropped the ball outside the gates, tho and that should be addressed, (and likely will be). On a regular day the embassy there only had a few cops outside the gates, maybe half a dozen or so. And most of them are **** poor farm boys who've been drafted and barely know how to operate the AK's they've been given. When the crowd got bad they likely beat feet.
I'll be interested to see what the fallout is.

Another thing I've learned about people is they'll drop their idealism for money. Ideally, they may hate us, but if we pay them a way better wage then they'd earn otherwise, they'll do whatever is necessary to keep that job. I'll guarantee you that many of the Bosnian civilians we employed ate a lot of pride to keep the well paying jobs we gave them. I saw interpreters stick their necks out for us against their own side because they didn't want to lose the gravy train. I don't think it's that likely that the foreign security guards of these embassies were any different.

 

[GBuck]

Well, now they're "protesting" outside of our Embassy in Cairo again. There are large fires and mass hysteria. It's live on CNN right now. I'm not saying we should bomb them or anything, but let the Marines do their damn job. If you attack US Soil, you should be dealt with. I'm not saying the country, I'm saying the ones actively doing it.

ETA:
I do think we should pull out and cut aid as well. Our first priority should be and should always be the safety of Americans.

 

[mrjarrell]

Well, now they're "protesting" outside of our Embassy in Cairo again. There are large fires and mass hysteria. It's live on CNN right now. I'm not saying we should bomb them or anything, but let the Marines do their damn job. If you attack US Soil, you should be dealt with. I'm not saying the country, I'm saying the ones actively doing it.

ETA:
I do think we should pull out and cut aid as well. Our first priority should be and should always be the safety of Americans.

The Marines job is the keep the buildings secure and the diplomats safe. To be fair there aren't a lot of them there. Around 16 or 20 in good times. Maybe less. And they're not overly armed. Shotguns, sidearms, some M-16/M-4's and teargas. Not exactly prepared for an all out assault. And they're spread thin on the ground protecting the buildings. Not a lot they can do. Here's hoping the Egyptians decided to send in their army guys to keep things under control.

 

[findingZzero]

snip***** And there's no "pacifist" stuff going on. Just a recognition of reality not based on anger.

.
How dare you, Mr. J, bring rationality into this argument. You will have to leave....

Here's my plan.
Let the 'hot heads' join the infantry, and let cooler heads prevail in the gum'mint.

 

[88GT]

The main thing I've learned through all of these embassy threads here is that most don't have the diplomatic skills to last more than a few days on Survivor, let alone determine foreign policy.

Sorry. Diplomacy became moot when the other side initiated violence. It becomes perfectly acceptable at that point to respond in kind.

You don't ask the bully not to hit after he's bloodied your nose. You respond in kind or let him do it again.

 

[hornadylnl]

Sorry. Diplomacy became moot when the other side initiated violence. It becomes perfectly acceptable at that point to respond in kind.

You don't ask the bully not to hit after he's bloodied your nose. You respond in kind or let him do it again.

Have we even identified who the bully is?

 

[NYFelon]

The real question is, how often has a group of radical, off-the-wall, fundamentalist retard Americans bombed the Embassy of a foreign country? I'm not aware of it happening even once. That does not preclude it from having happened, only that I am unaware of such an instance.

 

[hornadylnl]

The real question is, how often has a group of radical, off-the-wall, fundamentalist retard Americans bombed the Embassy of a foreign country? I'm not aware of it happening even once. That does not preclude it from having happened, only that I am unaware of such an instance.

From my op.

Since the US bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, should they have declared war on us and bombed us back to the stone ages? Were they ******* for not doing so?

Was it some lone wolf American flying the bomber that dropped the bomb on the Chinese Embassy or was it our government? To use the logic of many here, our wives and children should have been vaporized by the Chinese in retaliation.

 

[mrjarrell]

The real question is, how often has a group of radical, off-the-wall, fundamentalist retard Americans bombed the Embassy of a foreign country? I'm not aware of it happening even once. That does not preclude it from having happened, only that I am unaware of such an instance.

We bombed the Chinese embassy in Bosnia and suffered no repercussions. Plenty of our embassies have been attacked over the decades and never have we retaliated as many here are calling for. We've always held the individuals responsible, not the country or its people. This time should be no different.