-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Dry fire in 2010
- Thread starter Coach
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
I practice with my AR quite often. Little more tedious to dry fire the gun since you have to manually cycle the round in order to dry fire again (as opposed to by double action beretta which throws the hammer after every trigger pull). I'll work on speed reloads and tac reloads, switching between weapon hand and reaction hand etc. Since I can't really dry fire its more like me just working on weapon manipulation.
I'd like to think I'm a tactical guy who happens to shoot competition.
Man, I winced when I called myself tactical.
But yeah, I use the new airsoft toy to practice a draw from concealment, one shot. and a trigger prep (I was cheap and got a manual spring cock thing). I'd say I moved to cover in there, but since I'm doing it in the crowded garage, it's more of a "lean to cover".
Dryfire is about training yourself to see sights more than it is about pulling the trigger. Trigger control is in there, but mostly you are training yourself to see the sights and call shots and do it at speed. You can pull the trigger on the first shot and continue the drill pulling the trigger even though it is not reset and get plenty of good out of it.
I was going to post a message here, but I know Coach will ridicule me just like he does when I try to give "advice" about how to run a reloading press.
I was going to start a thread on cross country skiing as well. Maybe it would more appropriate for you to chime in there with some hints about form.
DougBarnes101
Sharpshooter
Oh man the temperature just dropped 20 degrees here!
Dry practice is great training and cheap. I usually do a 10-20 minute session 3-4 times a week. I have fired all my handguns and rifles on an empty chamber too may times to count, never had an issue. I seldom do competition and am not a tacticool guy but do it to keep my skills sharp. Actually sometimes my whole family will dry practice with rifles, taking turns running the bolt for each other.
I was going to start a thread on cross country skiing as well. Maybe it would more appropriate for you to chime in there with some hints about form.
Sir, I would glad to share some tips on telemarking as well as express my opinons regarding the shift from the old school form to the more modern "skating" method. I find the latter to be far more physically demanding, but a well-conditioned athlete can achieve noticably better speeds.
My primary interest in cross country technique is as it applies to the biathlon. As you know, the conventional wisdom is that it's more efficient to train a strong skier to shoot adequately than it is to teach an excellent marksman to skil well.
riverman67
Master
...and the fight is on.
BTW- thanks Coach, for the one on one description of the program for dry fire shooting improvement.
What he said
I am going to attempt to straighten the garage today and set up a few more targets.
I'm going to have to get a timer soon,,
Last edited:
On dry fire remember it is about training your eyes to see your sights and it is about driving the gun from target to target. It also a great place to begin calling your shots. Be honest with yourself and make sure you are getting A's.
If you guys have more questions come up let me know. Thanks for coming yesterday.
If you guys have more questions come up let me know. Thanks for coming yesterday.
For the rest, this is something we discussed while completing our debrief and administrative tasks last night.
Too many people have a very limited understanding about what "dry fire" encompasses. Most think it's just the act of firing the gun with no live round in the chamber with the intent of learning to press the trigger without disturbing the alignment of the gun. That is true, but it's far from the complete picture and only a small part of what you can do to improve you skills with dry fire practice.
As Coach said, it's really about learning to see and track your sights faster and more efficiently and about learning to drive the gun more quickly and efficiently from where it is to where it needs to be. It's about learning that your eyes are much faster than your ability to manipulate the gun and that visual information, how you process it, and then act is what truly underlies the limits on how fast and accurately you can shoot.
This is a big part of what Brian Enos refers to "see what you need to see." That also include how refined the sight picture must be for a given shooter to make a given shot, and this will change as you learn to see faster and more efficiently.
You'll also learn that your eyes and head will lead and the gun will follow. If you try to move eyes/head/gun as one, it's just too slow for driving the gun where it needs to be. That's true both for action/practical shooting competition as well as more serious applications of fast and accurate shooting.
Forget "dryfire." Let's "practice." We can call it whatever we want. We can apply it to guns, or to playing the piano, or driving, or anything we do that we want to get better at.
Practice takes the conscious actions that occupy our thinking, and makes them subconscious. Some of that is physical (such as how you move your arms during a draw or the position of your grip on the gun), some is physiological (such as how tight you grip the gun or where your eyes focus), and some is mental (where you place your attention during a reload or calling your shot). The more that we can make subconscious, the more we free the conscious to process other stuff; the conscious just has to monitor the subconsious.
These things apply whether training to be a bullseye shooter or a swat team member.
The reason most people practice at stuff (not just guns) and never improve is that they only practice the physical (Put my hands here, feet here, go through some motion, etc.). What myself, Coach, and Rhino are saying is to also focus on the other aspects. Pay attention in your practice to the physiological stuff (eg how fast you can move your eyes from target to target), as well as the mental stuff (eg where are you putting your attention).
These concepts are easy to apply to a bullseye shooter. We are used to breaking those functions down into very small components, covering all three levels. But when talking about target transitions or reloads or transitioning from primary to secondary weapon, people tend to go big picture and only focus on the motions.
My favorite analogy is from Saul Kirsch, that practice is like driving un-blazed trails, and the more you travel on that path you make ruts in the path which get deaper and deaper each time you travel on that path. Eventually it your car just follows that path without any input from you because the ruts are so deep. It becomes difficult to not drive in the same path as the tires naturally fall into the ruts.
The problem is that it can be hard to make new ruts if old habbits need to be changed. For example, if you train to watch your mag-well while doing a reload, it's going to be very hard to switch to watch the target should you decide you want to. You force that mental aspect (directing your attention) to become conscious again.
So to me, dryfire isnt just about gun manipulation. It isn't just about learning to see. It's just practice. We want ALL of these things to be subconscious, from the motions we go through during a draw, to when and where we shift our attention during a reload.
-rvb
Practice takes the conscious actions that occupy our thinking, and makes them subconscious. Some of that is physical (such as how you move your arms during a draw or the position of your grip on the gun), some is physiological (such as how tight you grip the gun or where your eyes focus), and some is mental (where you place your attention during a reload or calling your shot). The more that we can make subconscious, the more we free the conscious to process other stuff; the conscious just has to monitor the subconsious.
These things apply whether training to be a bullseye shooter or a swat team member.
The reason most people practice at stuff (not just guns) and never improve is that they only practice the physical (Put my hands here, feet here, go through some motion, etc.). What myself, Coach, and Rhino are saying is to also focus on the other aspects. Pay attention in your practice to the physiological stuff (eg how fast you can move your eyes from target to target), as well as the mental stuff (eg where are you putting your attention).
These concepts are easy to apply to a bullseye shooter. We are used to breaking those functions down into very small components, covering all three levels. But when talking about target transitions or reloads or transitioning from primary to secondary weapon, people tend to go big picture and only focus on the motions.
My favorite analogy is from Saul Kirsch, that practice is like driving un-blazed trails, and the more you travel on that path you make ruts in the path which get deaper and deaper each time you travel on that path. Eventually it your car just follows that path without any input from you because the ruts are so deep. It becomes difficult to not drive in the same path as the tires naturally fall into the ruts.
The problem is that it can be hard to make new ruts if old habbits need to be changed. For example, if you train to watch your mag-well while doing a reload, it's going to be very hard to switch to watch the target should you decide you want to. You force that mental aspect (directing your attention) to become conscious again.
So to me, dryfire isnt just about gun manipulation. It isn't just about learning to see. It's just practice. We want ALL of these things to be subconscious, from the motions we go through during a draw, to when and where we shift our attention during a reload.
-rvb
Last edited:
Part 2. 
Improving with dryfire... I've had several people say to me over the years that they dryfire regularly and still haven't improved.
This goes back to that subconscious/conscious thing. Take drawing a gun on target. If you do 1000 draws per week, and you do them all the same, all you are doing it re-enforcing the way you've always done it. It's a lot of practice, with no improvement. As I said earlier, it's hard to get out of the ruts and make new paths once a skill is subconscious, and that includes making a new/faster path. You can't take a new path if you always drive in the same ruts.
For me, I have to take those skills and force them out of the subconscious; I have to make myself think about them. Instead of going through the motions while putting my attention elswhere, I put my attention back on the motions (Since the mind can only think about so many things at once). Pay attention to what's fastest. Sometimes [gasp] I even do the motion faster than I am really capable of (eg draw so fast I miss the target or don't call the shot). But a few hundred of those a week mixed in with "normal" practice and suddenly I've started to make new ruts. Now my subconscious starts to accept the new pace as "normal" and I can go back to putting my attention on other things.
I did this last night with a 10 yd draw/2/reload/2 drill. With my open gun I could do this in around 2.0 or 2.1. But now switching back to my production gun I couldn't get under 2.7 which was frustrating. So I focused on the motions and worried less about the "shots" and the sights. Once I felt more comfortable and consistent at a new faster physical pace, I put it all back together. After about 100 reps I was calling my "shots" in the A-zone and doing the drill in 2.3. A 15% improvement in one night... all because I went outside my comfort zone, and brought the subconscious motions back into the conscious.
Tonight I don't expect to hit 2.3 out of the gate. Those ruts are not deep yet, so again I'll have to push myself. But THAT is what dryfire is for. 95% of it we could do in livefire, but who can afford 2500 rounds per week to accomplish the same thing?
-rvb
Improving with dryfire... I've had several people say to me over the years that they dryfire regularly and still haven't improved.
This goes back to that subconscious/conscious thing. Take drawing a gun on target. If you do 1000 draws per week, and you do them all the same, all you are doing it re-enforcing the way you've always done it. It's a lot of practice, with no improvement. As I said earlier, it's hard to get out of the ruts and make new paths once a skill is subconscious, and that includes making a new/faster path. You can't take a new path if you always drive in the same ruts.
For me, I have to take those skills and force them out of the subconscious; I have to make myself think about them. Instead of going through the motions while putting my attention elswhere, I put my attention back on the motions (Since the mind can only think about so many things at once). Pay attention to what's fastest. Sometimes [gasp] I even do the motion faster than I am really capable of (eg draw so fast I miss the target or don't call the shot). But a few hundred of those a week mixed in with "normal" practice and suddenly I've started to make new ruts. Now my subconscious starts to accept the new pace as "normal" and I can go back to putting my attention on other things.
I did this last night with a 10 yd draw/2/reload/2 drill. With my open gun I could do this in around 2.0 or 2.1. But now switching back to my production gun I couldn't get under 2.7 which was frustrating. So I focused on the motions and worried less about the "shots" and the sights. Once I felt more comfortable and consistent at a new faster physical pace, I put it all back together. After about 100 reps I was calling my "shots" in the A-zone and doing the drill in 2.3. A 15% improvement in one night... all because I went outside my comfort zone, and brought the subconscious motions back into the conscious.
Tonight I don't expect to hit 2.3 out of the gate. Those ruts are not deep yet, so again I'll have to push myself. But THAT is what dryfire is for. 95% of it we could do in livefire, but who can afford 2500 rounds per week to accomplish the same thing?
-rvb
I did not call it practice because folks could confuse it for live fire. But it is practice. You make a good point that just going through the motions will not equal improvement. But without a doubt great improvement can be had from dryfire.
rvb and Coach make excellent points.
It reminds me of so many people I've encountered whose skills have improved dramatically in a short period of time. I mention their improvement and say they must have been practicing. Then they deny they've done any practicing at all. When pressed, they admit they've been doing dryfire practice for 10 minutes or half an hour or an hour a day seven days a week. But they were not "practicing." Hehehe
It reminds me of so many people I've encountered whose skills have improved dramatically in a short period of time. I mention their improvement and say they must have been practicing. Then they deny they've done any practicing at all. When pressed, they admit they've been doing dryfire practice for 10 minutes or half an hour or an hour a day seven days a week. But they were not "practicing." Hehehe
I've got a freaking pain in my right arm from dryfiring. Course, I've got two cracked frames too, maybe I oughta lighten up on my grip.
My garage is small so I had to use the reduced scale targets. They seem to be working well. One non raining day during the last warm spell, I hit the range. I did the 6 reload 6 drill 4 times. (Couldn't find the brand new timer, one of the downsides to too large range bags) But they seemed pretty fast and I had just a few hits outside the A zone.
I still fumble too many reloads though. I usually hit the edge of the magwell with the mag. I need to back up, slow mo my reloads and start back up from there. I've noticed some good improvements in my base times since I've started 3 weeks ago.
I have REALLY noticed how much faster transitions are when you snap your head to the next target.
Next time I hit the range, I'm taking Andersons book with me (and the timer). Course, I've got about a million things to do next time at the range. Chronoing several loads, benching the backup pistol, learning how to reload a shotgun from the belt. And I'm planning on buying two more competition guns in a month or so.
I probably need to retire and do this full time.
My garage is small so I had to use the reduced scale targets. They seem to be working well. One non raining day during the last warm spell, I hit the range. I did the 6 reload 6 drill 4 times. (Couldn't find the brand new timer, one of the downsides to too large range bags) But they seemed pretty fast and I had just a few hits outside the A zone.
I still fumble too many reloads though. I usually hit the edge of the magwell with the mag. I need to back up, slow mo my reloads and start back up from there. I've noticed some good improvements in my base times since I've started 3 weeks ago.
I have REALLY noticed how much faster transitions are when you snap your head to the next target.
Next time I hit the range, I'm taking Andersons book with me (and the timer). Course, I've got about a million things to do next time at the range. Chronoing several loads, benching the backup pistol, learning how to reload a shotgun from the belt. And I'm planning on buying two more competition guns in a month or so.
I probably need to retire and do this full time.
Last edited:
The arm pain could become a huge pain in the a**. Those cheap bands that you wear right below the elbow really help.
My times have been coming down as well. Seeing a little progress is a good thing. Took my limited gun in to have the front sight fixed today. So I may be moving to the carry gun for drive fire in the mean time.
Bill if the weather is decent next Saturday afternoon maybe we could do a little shooting here.
My times have been coming down as well. Seeing a little progress is a good thing. Took my limited gun in to have the front sight fixed today. So I may be moving to the carry gun for drive fire in the mean time.
Bill if the weather is decent next Saturday afternoon maybe we could do a little shooting here.
Site Supporter
Staff online
-
GodFearinGunTotinSuper Moderator
Members online
- cmamath13
- joshuamckee
- DoggyDaddy
- boogieman
- baldmax
- jspy5
- radar8756
- drm-hp
- Brad69
- NAVISTAR275GM
- duanewade
- brizzad
- Catlady
- SnoopLoggyDog
- 55fairlane
- yetti462
- GodFearinGunTotin
- mike4sigs
- efd1295
- slims2002
- JamesV
- Gabriel
- smclear
- ranger04
- snapping turtle
- MRP2003
- WabashMX5
- steif
- W3s
- MDpolo
- Dr.Midnight
- papa6x
- shootersix
- Mgderf
- bub74
- Jacob271
- INPatriot
- jbm1521
- Singlestack
- blueskies
- patience0830
- dboz
- Indye41
- drgnrobo
- boosteds13cc
- Hayden F
- HoosierHunter07
- sescbo
