Concealed Carry: Tactically Useless and Politically Shameful?

[melensdad]

All that and for what? An increased chance of a gun snatch? A guarantee to be involved in a situation you may not want to be?

Well I've been searching for OC gun grab news stories and have never found one. As for being involved in a situation, that is another one that strikes me more as urban legend than anything else. I'm sure there may have been instances but I can't really find any instance where a guy doing open carry was singled out and shot by bad guys, while I did find stories about guys doing OC who were present and bad things did not happen the way bad guys had hoped.

To your point about the anti-gun crowd and their feelings. That is a valid issue. However I don't think it should stop people from practicing OC. I just think it makes it important for those who choose to OC to do so in a very responsible and respectable manner. Who are you likely to be more afraid of, a neatly dressed/professional looking man doing an open carry or a gang-banging wannabe? Situations also affect things, if you are doing OC and you are walking with your wife and children you probably don't appear to be a threat, but a group of natty dressed young men doing OC may give off a different appearance to onlookers. JMO

 

[epsylum]

Well I've been searching for OC gun grab news stories and have never found one.

Why don't police gun grabs count? Are they not OCing? There is even video of one on here. If criminals are bold enough to attempt it with a uniformed officer, why is it a strectch to think it might happen with an armed citizen?

 

[melensdad]

Why don't police gun grabs count? Are they not OCing? There is even video of one on here. If criminals are bold enough to attempt it with a uniformed officer, why is it a strectch to think it might happen with an armed citizen?

Well I don't count police because we are not talking about police. However, in most police gun grabs the police were/are in some sort of confrontation that is not typical of what citizens would be involved in.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I never said that. I'm simply saying that I have not seen evidence of it. It seems like it might be an unrealized fear. It is like saying that a big comet will crash into the earth and destroy all life as we know it. Yes, that may happen. Yes, it may even have happened in the past and could be one explanation for the lack of Dinosaurs. But it is not likely to happen based on evidence we can find, still I suspect that some children lay awake at night worrying about comets crashing into the earth. This same type of concern may well be what we see with 'gun grabs' when people employ OC.

 

[JetGirl]

OC or CC...
My personal opinion is that I don't want to OC at the risk of some punk trying to do damage and thinking "take out the people I see with guns FIRST". No thanks.
I'd rather just go about my soccer mom bidness in condition yellow, thankyouverymuch.
My two cents anyhow.

 

[melensdad]

I don't want to OC at the risk of some punk trying to do damage and thinking "take out the people I see with guns FIRST".

I totally understand your position. I also have been unable to find any instance where this occurred. It is a common position for people to have. I am not saying it is wrong, I just question if there is any foundation for the concern?

 

[JetGirl]

I totally understand your position. I also have been unable to find any instance where this occurred. It is a common position for people to have. I am not saying it is wrong, I just question if there is any foundation for the concern?

Personally, I take that concern from hearing/reading accounts of things discovered after the fact in amongst a murderer's things. You know...like hit lists and "to do first" plans by kids planning on shooting up a school or something. The mention of getting any security personel out of the picture (and similar discovery) is what sets my teeth on edge about it. It may be unfounded, but better safe than sorry for me and mine.

 

[melensdad]

Personally, I take that concern from hearing/reading accounts of things discovered after the fact in amongst a murderer's things. You know...like hit lists and "to do first" plans by kids planning on shooting up a school or something. The mention of getting any security personel out of the picture (and similar discovery) is what sets my teeth on edge about it. It may be unfounded, but better safe than sorry for me and mine.

I totally understand your position. I also have been unable to find any instance where this occurred. It is a common position for people to have. I am not saying it is wrong, I just question if there is any foundation for the concern?

 

[JetGirl]

I just question if there is any foundation for the concern?

Frankly, I don't know of an exact incident. I can only point to articles that "allude" to plans of what to do first and where to go next. The actual wording never says "take out security" but it seems implied (by my own interpretation anyway).
Sorry I can't help more than that.

 

[SavageEagle]

I THINK YOU'RE ALL WRONG! HAHA! No just kidding, this is an interesting thread. Couple this with Pa. Patriot's experiance at the Old Country Buffet I believe I will OC as much as I CC. If the kwown presence of a gun doesn't stop the BG, and he comes for you first, better that than the prego chick with 8 kids around her first. Besides, it's my God given right, it will peak ppl's curiousity(or scare them which if they scare that easy they have something to hide), and it might just detur one criminal from commiting some heineous crime. Personally I think eveyone should OC and CC the same amount. There are times for both and that's my 2 cents. LOL

 

[JetGirl]

I THINK YOU'RE ALL WRONG!

Dad??

 

[SavageEagle]

Dad??

 

[melensdad]

Well here is an update on the situation in Pennsylvania where OC was exercised by a large group of families at the Old Country Buffet.

I'm still monitoring all the going's on and found this to be a good read.

Lots of misinformation among the opposition


"Having your own gun be used against you is the most common form of being shot."

Not true. Being a gang banger/criminal is the "most common form of being shot." That is followed by being suicidal. You have been given false and distorted information by the media and the gun control movement. If you will take the time to analyze DOJ statistics as I have, you will find that what I am saying is true.​

"So again, I'll ask, what do you do? I being sincerely curious here. Do you just choose to not attend events or go to a place where you wouldn't be allowed to carry your gun? Is it appropriate to take a gun to a school or church? What about Chuckie Cheese? Should you have a gun at a kids birthday party?"

I generally avoid states and individual places I am not legally able to carry the means to defend myself and my loved ones. There are many places I have to go for business where I cannot carry a firearm so I just go. That's reality. Last winter I went on a 2 week vacation to a state where I could have carried my sidearm. It was inconvenient to take it with me. Risk was low, inconvenience was high, so I went unarmed. I also prefer to have various insurances, airbags in my car, to wear my seatbelt, to have really good brakes and tires, and to wear a helmet and leathers when on a motorcycle. Doesn't mean I will not own personal property, drive in a car or ride a motorcycle without those protections, but I sure prefer having them passively available for use if ever need. And like with my pistol, I hope I never need any of those things because everything in my world is happy and fine.

One factor being missed here is that a great majority of people who OC also have concealed carry (CC) permits. Nationally, CC permit holders have a drastically lower rate of law enforcement (LE) interaction than the general population, more than 10X lower in every state for which I have seen statistics. To obtain a CC permit in my state, after taking a 10 hour class, I submitted fingerprints to LE and underwent a local and state background check, and then they sent my prints to the FBI for a federal check. If you are standing next to someone OCing a pistol, there is greater than a 75hance that the person also has a CC permit, meaning they have passed background checks at a minimum of local and state levels and found not to be a domestic abuser, a drug user, a drunk, a felon, etc or in other words, to be among the very most law abiding citizens in your community. Your odds are MUCH better that the person standing next to you is a law abiding citizen if s/he is carrying a firearm in an obvious manner as compared to the general population. How many gang-bangers do you see walking around with a pistol openly carried in a nice holster? How many people who are not law abiding citizens legally able to own a firearm are going to risk illegally carrying a pistol in full sight of the entire world?

Want to carry a firearm in this great nation, especially across state lines? You need to know federal law, state law, local ordinance of manner of carry, manner of transport, off-limit places, special conditions to carry, license/permits required if any, etc. You are responsible to verify all information and to learn the laws of any state you will visit. What kind of people do you think take the hours and hours to learn this information to ensure that they do NOT violate any laws? I would call them law abiding citizens and good neighbors who take personal responsibility for themselves and their families. Carrying a firearm can be a pain in the butt and if someone could pull out a crystal ball and tell all of us the exact day and time we would ever need to use it for defense few of us would carry them at any other time.

As to someone just grabbing the gun, sure it could happen. I have never read of confirmed case of it happening to a civilian although I do know of 2 media reported incidents that were debunked by the PDs supposedly involved, but yes, it could happen. You also could walk into your house after work and find a man attempting to rape your wife and you could end up stopping him with your sidearm. There are lots of "could happens". Most people who OC carry in what is called a retention holster. A retention holster requires more than just a straight pull to remove the firearm and is used to ensure that someone cannot just run up and yank out your pistol. The anti-gun people aren't the only ones who think of this stuff. Actually, we spend a lot more time talking about ways to ensure that we are safely keeping and bearing our arms than the antis do about ways to infringe upon our constitutional rights.

To those who hate our second amendment protections, I hope for you that an inalienable right you do enjoy and regularly exercise is not next to be infringed. To those who choose not to exercise their second amendment rights while respecting the right of those who do, I support your decision to freely make that decision and pray that you will not have need of them.​

[FONT=&quot]Ralph Wiggum, St. Louis, Missouri

If you want to read some disturbing takes from the anti's you might spend some time in this discussion ........

[/FONT] GUNFIGHT AT THE O.C. BUFFET


The PAFOA also had a representative on the Alex Jones radio show today, here's the podcast.

 

[Bill of Rights]

...3) From the crime reports we hear about daily in our local news, it's apparent that the thugs we have here living here have zero regard for human life. They'd just as soon kill you for fun as they would take your wallet. They're also not too bright to begin with. That being said, if they walk into a store and see five people and no guns, either they figure, "No one's armed" or "Maybe 2 out of 5 are armed" and they act, figuring they'll take their chances. In most cases, they're right - either the shoppers are not armed, or if they are the concealed carriers are sure keeping their guns hidden since all we hear around here is how the BG's get away all the time. Conversely, if the BG walks into to a store and sees three armed people, he's likely to choose easier game. If he does engage, then he'd forced to choose a first target. If he's successful with his first choice, the other should be able to take him out, or they shouldn't be carrying. In fact, if all three are true shepherds, then they should see what's about to happen before the BG makes his move....

Great thread. I noticed this when I read it and I have to say I'm surprised no one else has brought it up: Your scenario above where there are 3 people OCing, while most favorable to "our side", is not borne out by fact. In IN, roughly 6 of every 100 adult non-felons even hold a LTC, and of those, some smaller percentage actually carry often, let alone daily. An even smaller percentage OC. Let's be generous and say that half of those with LTCs carry daily or near-daily, and half of those OC. For there to be three armed people OCing in that store, there would have to be 200 people there. (6% of 200 is 12 with LTCs, half (six) of whom carry often, and half (three) of those OC).

I haven't seen many convenience stores that will even hold 200 people. While groceries do get robbed, it happens fairly seldom by comparison. Far more likely, I think, as in the posted story, that the BG will have an accomplice than that we can expect to do so.

Is there a place for OC? Sure. Will it serve the same purpose as the empty holster protest on college campuses? Possibly. I think we do better educating with our voices and minds than we do with our sidearms, though; the mind is the weapon, the pistol's only a tool.

Just my two cents.

Thanks again for posting this thought-provoking thread!

Blessings,
B

 

[munky_3434]

pesonally too many college kids where i'm from to OC. 95% of them are liable to freak out and call 911. the other 5% are probably packing cause they came from chicago or gary, and the likelyhood of them being able to properly use it is about nonexistent

 

[melensdad]

Great thread. I noticed this when I read it and I have to say I'm surprised no one else has brought it up: Your scenario above where there are 3 people OCing, while most favorable to "our side", is not borne out by fact. In IN, roughly 6 of every 100 adult non-felons even hold a LTC, and of those, some smaller percentage actually carry often, let alone daily. . . .
Thanks again for posting this thought-provoking thread!

Blessings,
B

Correct, it is based on an optimistic view of the future where we gun owners exercise our rights and, consequently, educate those around us that we are, in fact, the good guys.

But below is another letter that I gleaned from the Pennsylvania debate and it is a well reasoned response to those who fear all forms of carry. Damn, I'd love to meet this guy ...............

Not an emotional issue


"These individuals say they carry openly because it is their right and they feel they have a need to protect other average citizens from the bad guys."

Nope, we carry for self-defense and defense of our loved ones. Like SCOTUS has said about the police, we have no obligation to put ourselves in harm's way to save another person, although many of both groups would do so selflessly. SCOTUS has determined since the 1840s that it is not up to the police to protect any individual and they have no obligation to do so. It is also not the obligation of any other citizen to protect you. It is up to every individual citizen to protect him/herself and his/her own family, which takes us back to why I made a long considered decision to carry a firearm daily. I would guess that if your wife or daughter were to be attacked and a law abiding citizen carrying a firearm defended her that you may have a different opinion on the matter. Gun owning citizens prevent or stop 1.5-2.7 million violent crimes per year depending on the year and who's numbers you choose to accept, usually without even needing to fire a shot.

We are not responsible for any impressions anyone's child has about firearms after seeing someone OC or their impression on any other matter, however, the comment about a child's mis-perceptions tells volumes about the perspective. It is a parent's responsibility to teach their children that firearms are merely a tool, sometimes used for constructive purposes and sometimes for destructive purposes and it is the person who is wielding the firearm who is responsible in either case. Such a situation is also a great opportunity to teach civics to your child. It is a great opportunity to explain the Bill of Rights and to explain that our founders believed that certain rights were endowed by our Creator on every human being and that the United States Constitution is a beautiful document because it protects those rights from government for every American. Among those rights is the right to assembly, the right to petition the government for redress, the right to free speech, protection from a government dictated religion, the right to keep and bear arms, protection from unreasonable search and seizures, protections against self-incrimination and the right to a speedy and fair trial. There are many others and it would great for a parent to then take their child home and sit down together to read the Bill of Rights, review the other protections and discuss why America is a great nation because of these protections.

Again I submit, it would be extremely rare for someone other than a law abiding citizen who can legally own a firearm to open carry a pistol for the world to see. Gang bangers/criminals pull their guns out of their waistbands from under their shirts or coats, not out of a nice holster, openly carried on their hip for the entire world to see at all times. And we (at least the vast majority of us) do not do it to be cool, or tough or to impress anyone. Our method of carrying a firearm is usually a very personal one and it is our right to make such decisions, just as it is others' constitutional right to call us rude, idiots and irresponsible for that decision. I have no need to name call as this is not an emotional issue for me. This is a constitutional and well reasoned decision.

I both OC and CC depending on circumstance and legality. To those who think that OC will always make me a primary target of a bad guy, try to think of me then as an ally providing a diversion for you while you draw your concealed weapon and I will thank you if you get him before he gets me. However, to call me and other people who OC idiots is unfair and a stretch.


Ralph Wiggum, St. Louis, Missouri​