Compressor to heat pump conversion

[BobDaniels]

Have you considered a wood pellet stove/Fireplace insert? Many can heat 2000sq ft home and alot higher depending on their size. I have a Pelpro unit and it has a 40lb hopper. $750 at menards and the 40lb bags of hardwood pellets are $4 each on sale ($5 reg). Average consumption on by 35000btu unit is 1-1.5 bags per 24hrs. Very easy maintenance and the fireplace insert units are very nice.

I would put a burn barrel in the middle of the living room BEFORE i would put a heat pump system outside!

I recall the price of pellets going high a few years back. Am I remembering wrong? Did the price come back down?

Burn barrel in the living room wouldn't bother me so much, but it wouldn't take long before it and me are sleeping in the garage with the dog!

 

[BobDaniels]

With a proper install and good back up in the AH you should have a very smooth transition to resistance back up. It may or may not be noticeable. A "Good" 13 seer or higher unit (expense goes up and return is questionable) properly sized and installed Air handler/back up heat package and a good solid supply and return duct system you should have smooth sailing and some decent energy savings.

If you are looking into a Hybrid system have a defib unit standing by when you see the pprice.

How high of a seer rating should I consider before I'm just being and feel good eco douche?

The existing supply and return ducts seem to be decent as the temperature is consistent throughout the house. The registers are in the baseboard and there are two registers per duct. It seemed (to me anyway) that you couldn't feel much air coming out with both registers open, so I keep one register closed.

I wonder what makes the hybrid systems so spendy. Perhaps the control unit? I'm in my early 40's and plan to live out my years in this house.

 

[churchmouse]

How high of a seer rating should I consider before I'm just being and feel good eco douche?

The existing supply and return ducts seem to be decent as the temperature is consistent throughout the house. The registers are in the baseboard and there are two registers per duct. It seemed (to me anyway) that you couldn't feel much air coming out with both registers open, so I keep one register closed.

I wonder what makes the hybrid systems so spendy. Perhaps the control unit? I'm in my early 40's and plan to live out my years in this house.

The Hybrids are very involved. A lot going on and it is reflected in the cost. They also have to be installed and started/set up by a factory rep or dealer tech. That adds to costs as well.
Nothing wrong with these systems they are just stupid expensive.

As to seer rating. Anything above a 13 SEER you are possibly just spending money to feel good. The new systems deliver a lot more air then their older brethren. That is why duct design is so important. Return air is a factor as well.

In you situation a 13 seer system properly installed would most likely suit your needs.
-Is the duct in the crawl??
-Is the crawl sealed up well. I mean is it warm in the winter and not out door temp. This is important if the duct is not insulated.
-Is it metal or fiber board.
-Is the return air sized properly.
Just a few things that will have to be looked at.

 

[BobDaniels]

The Hybrids are very involved. A lot going on and it is reflected in the cost. They also have to be installed and started/set up by a factory rep or dealer tech. That adds to costs as well.
Nothing wrong with these systems they are just stupid expensive.

As to seer rating. Anything above a 13 SEER you are possibly just spending money to feel good. The new systems deliver a lot more air then their older brethren. That is why duct design is so important. Return air is a factor as well.

In you situation a 13 seer system properly installed would most likely suit your needs.
-Is the duct in the crawl??
-Is the crawl sealed up well. I mean is it warm in the winter and not out door temp. This is important if the duct is not insulated.
-Is it metal or fiber board.
-Is the return air sized properly.
Just a few things that will have to be looked at.

Reading between the lines, it appears the hybrids do not subscribe to the KISS method? and would have more points of failure? Reliability is a major factor to me.

Ducts are in the crawl/partial basement, crawl has vents but they remain closed, must be a decent seal because water pipes are also in the crawl and we did not have frozen pipe issues this past winter and I think we all remember how cold it was.

As much as it pains me, I guess I'm leaning back towards the heat pump. Do you mind if I hit you up via PM for a recommendation or two on somone that can sell/install a system for me? I lurk more than I post, but I recall you are retired? It should be an easy job if you're intersted. The furnace is in a walk out basement and it should be an easy R&R type job.

I don't know if I will get this done before this winter but will have it done by the end of next summer.

 

[churchmouse]

Reading between the lines, it appears the hybrids do not subscribe to the KISS method? and would have more points of failure? Reliability is a major factor to me.

Ducts are in the crawl/partial basement, crawl has vents but they remain closed, must be a decent seal because water pipes are also in the crawl and we did not have frozen pipe issues this past winter and I think we all remember how cold it was.

As much as it pains me, I guess I'm leaning back towards the heat pump. Do you mind if I hit you up via PM for a recommendation or two on somone that can sell/install a system for me? I lurk more than I post, but I recall you are retired? It should be an easy job if you're intersted. The furnace is in a walk out basement and it should be an easy R&R type job.

I don't know if I will get this done before this winter but will have it done by the end of next summer.

PM and I will get you hooked up. It is the ingo way.

Sig Guy.....this should be points for me.....

 

[BobDaniels]

PM and I will get you hooked up. It is the ingo way.

Sig Guy.....this should be points for me.....

Thank you sir!

 

[IndyGunworks]

Even if he doesn't do the work churchmouse is definitely the man to talk to. He will tell you like it is and not try and give you a bunch of sales gimmicks

 

[Brian Ski]

After the so so luck with mine I am not thrilled with them. I think I got my WTA system for about 10k installed. Smaller system. Was a Water furnace brand.

I don't know anything about your situation, but you did say you live out in the sticks. Ever look into a outdoor wood boiler??? Not sure if you are into the wood cutting stuff. Just tossing out an idea. They work pretty good and pretty cheap to run. I would do one of those before I would go back to a heat pump.

 

[briand212]

i bought one of the trane hybird systems 3 years ago.. heatpump/propane .. it replaced a 85% propane furnace. I have to say my propane usage was cut almost in half!
but as others have said they are very expensive!!! I paid 10 grand for mine and that was with a pretty large discount ( my wife and the owners wife are best friends )
after 3 years i can say I am happy with the system.

oh and it came with one of the comfort II thermostats that is connected to the internet.. shows you the weather and current satelite images and is a lcd picture frame ,, which is cool but totaly not needed LOL

 

[remauto1187]

I recall the price of pellets going high a few years back. Am I remembering wrong? Did the price come back down?

Burn barrel in the living room wouldn't bother me so much, but it wouldn't take long before it and me are sleeping in the garage with the dog!

I didnt have a pellet stove a couple years ago so I dont know what the prices were then. But what I do know is that you can buy a pallet (1ton) of pellets for $200 at rural king or menards and it should last you easily a month unless your home is ridiculously losing heat or is uninsulated. They really are the cats meow UNTIL they break but they are easy to work on and can be done right there on site by you. I havent had to do any repairs to mine yet. Parts are cheap (I priced them) and am considering getting wearout items stocked here at my home in case. My new home i build next year is getting a pellet fireplace insert and a 95% natural gas furnace. The gas furnace will be the standby...not the primary heat.

I currently run a Goodman 95% furnace which has been in service since 2010 and no problems at all to date. My house was built in 1900 and has ZERO insulation in the attic but does have some drop down ceilings with insulation batts above. Alot of walls have zero insulation, some that I yanked the plaster down now have insulation and drywall. My furnace was $875 dleivered to my driveway (no license required to purchase). My condenser unit was $1075 delivered to my driveway. Did not come charged so no license required. I do have a EPA License to work on any size a/c unit. (AKA Universal License)

 

[sig-guy]

PM and I will get you hooked up. It is the ingo way.

Sig Guy.....this should be points for me.....

Yes, I am!

I heard someone say; "they will never own another boiler". Wasn't the boilers problem, it wasn't installed correctly.
Blame the installer, not the equipment.

 

[sig-guy]

Reliability is a major factor to me.

Then locate the best installer you can find. Go with their recommendations. Have them install the equipment they sale, install and service. Forget the name on the equipment, as the sizing, installation and set-up is far more important. If someone's not a big HP guy, continue the search for the correct installer. HVAC equipment isn't plug and play. The installer is the last guy in the assembly line. Their directly connected to the reliability/longevity of your new system.

A HP with electric is cheaper then a Dual Fuel, as its a simpler design. Both systems have the same outdoor equipment. Indoor is completely different. The electric option has an air handler, which houses the coil, fan and has a location for the electric strips. Then you have the extra electrical supply for the heat strips. The dual fuel system has the same coil and fan (per say), but now you add in a high efficient furnace. A furnace is far more expensive then a set of elements installed into an air handler. Then you have the fuel supply, combustion air/exhaust piping and drain.

If someone can work on a furnace and HP, they can service a dual fuel system. There's just a few added components to allow them to work together. If they can't follow a wiring diagram to figure out the operation, they have no place in the service industry.

 

[sig-guy]

I would put a burn barrel in the middle of the living room BEFORE i would put a heat pump system outside!

Hummm, stay warm with a HP or use a burn barrel inside and die from Carbon Monoxide Poisoning, hummmmm

 

[Brian Ski]

Hummm, stay warm with a HP or use a burn barrel inside and die from Carbon Monoxide Poisoning, hummmmm

Don't you get carbon monoxide from burning fossil fuels... Wood does not give off carbon monoxide IIRC. But it will give off smoke.

Will have to see how Remauto turns out...

 

[Echelon]

Heat pump / gas hybrid furnaces can be had for much cheaper than quoted here. The internet provides.... gone are the days of needing an HVAC license to purchase this stuff.

 

[BobDaniels]

I want to say Thank You to everyone for the adviced I have received in this thread. Some points have been made that I did not consider and will help steer my decision. In particular, I did not think about having to exhuast a propane fired furnace and given its location, that could add a considerable amount to the installation.

Rather than a new post for each response, I'll combine my responses here:

Pellet stove and outdoor wood burner: I should have said I live in the corn fields rather than sticks, so not much in the way of trees. Having spent some time cutting and splitting, the fuel source is far from free. Pellet stove will be in consideration for backup/supplemental heat. I am going to get some sort of insert for the fireplace, just have not dertermined fuel. The burn barrel is still in consideration.

DIY system: I do like saving money have bought many things off the interwebs, but me installing an hvac system myself would be a bad thing. I can barely sweat copper water pipes without having a leak! I am a hands on type of guy and am reasonabley handy, but this is out of my league.

I do want somone local to do the sales, install, and service. If something goes wrong, I want somone local. (to me, local is boone and marion counties) Sig-Guy's advice is sound no matter what you are buying for your home. Churchmouse will be hearing from me in the near future.

If I've missed addressing anyone's input, I applogize, it is not intentional.

Brian Ski- Its funny you popped into my thread, my name ends in ski as well and I lived in SB for a while when I was a kid. Ran around with a guy named Brian who's name also ended in ski. Let me know if Tally Ho rings a bell.

 

[churchmouse]

Heat pump / gas hybrid furnaces can be had for much cheaper than quoted here. The internet provides.... gone are the days of needing an HVAC license to purchase this stuff.

You have to buy the "Right" stuff.

I have had so many people want me to install their bargain purchases only to find nothing matches. Way more work than if they just let me get the equipment for them. I do not really mark up the equipment. I charge my time for gathering/Fabricating/installing and setting up that equipment. Nobody does this for free and I have had more than enough practice.
These days I say "NO".....If I am putting the puzzle together....I am picking out the pieces.

 

[churchmouse]

I want to say Thank You to everyone for the adviced I have received in this thread. Some points have been made that I did not consider and will help steer my decision. In particular, I did not think about having to exhuast a propane fired furnace and given its location, that could add a considerable amount to the installation.

Rather than a new post for each response, I'll combine my responses here:

Pellet stove and outdoor wood burner: I should have said I live in the corn fields rather than sticks, so not much in the way of trees. Having spent some time cutting and splitting, the fuel source is far from free. Pellet stove will be in consideration for backup/supplemental heat. I am going to get some sort of insert for the fireplace, just have not dertermined fuel. The burn barrel is still in consideration.

DIY system: I do like saving money have bought many things off the interwebs, but me installing an hvac system myself would be a bad thing. I can barely sweat copper water pipes without having a leak! I am a hands on type of guy and am reasonabley handy, but this is out of my league.

I do want somone local to do the sales, install, and service. If something goes wrong, I want somone local. (to me, local is boone and marion counties) Sig-Guy's advice is sound no matter what you are buying for your home. Churchmouse will be hearing from me in the near future.

If I've missed addressing anyone's input, I applogize, it is not intentional.

Brian Ski- Its funny you popped into my thread, my name ends in ski as well and I lived in SB for a while when I was a kid. Ran around with a guy named Brian who's name also ended in ski. Let me know if Tally Ho rings a bell.

As to Vent/exhaust......the hi-eff units only require schedule 40 PVC to get the exhaust out of the space. This is far easier to route than metal-vent.

 

[Brian Ski]

You have to buy the "Right" stuff.

I have had so many people want me to install their bargain purchases only to find nothing matches. Way more work than if they just let me get the equipment for them. I do not really mark up the equipment. I charge my time for gathering/Fabricating/installing and setting up that equipment. Nobody does this for free and I have had more than enough practice.
These days I say "NO".....If I am putting the puzzle together....I am picking out the pieces.

I agree with you... Sure anyone can charge an AC unit, but the charge has to be correct or it will use more electric, be inefficient, and/or burn out the compressor.

I am a shade tree mechanic and have trouble with people buying their own parts. Some times it is ok... But when you have to take back parts, no reciept, other parts cost more, the place they got it from does not have the right part, other parts needed etc.

C/M I have no problem with you guys marking up parts. People have to realize you have to buy them, gas to get them, your time at the place, plus drive time, and your knowledge to back up that they work correctly.

 

[Echelon]

I wan't trying to imply a professional isn't worth the cost... they usually are. I've got no problem with someone charging for a service by any means, all I was getting at is that the parts are for the most part freely available online these days for those that may be interested.

I saw Trane and York furnaces and compressors on Amazon recently, as well as some cheaper brands... 3rd party sellers I'm sure, I really doubt Amazon is getting into the furnace business.